Embracing the standard fantasy tropes

[Numion]

Some DMs feel insecure if players know too much about the campaign world. While an FR besserwisser at the table might make things difficult for the DM, I would be happy if my players spent some time learning the world. After all, they are usually playing PCs who've spent their entire lives in the campaign world, and as such should know something about it.

But there, that might be one reason for DMs constantly doing "In my world Elves are actually plants and the sun rises from the west in the evening!" type of campaigns.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

I am just kiddin around. But, "mostly rural" isn't a standard fantasy trope?

Ah, you got me there (though there is in fact quite a lot of space for wilderness exploration in the setting).

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

Who doesn't like new content? I mean, outside of the autistic community.

There is nothing wrong with new content, but there should be some sort of point to it. "Being different" is in itself not enough.

By this logic, the creation of any new or and music becomes 'somewhat dubious', seeing as the vast majority of work is built upon the stuff that came before it and doesn't represent a radical departure.

Perhaps we should have stopped at the Dutch Masters and the Gregorian chant. Seriously though, do you believe something has to be 'wholly new' in order to justify it's creation, especially since we're talking about a hobby. It's not like we're frittering away grant money.

You don't need to know anything about music to enjoy a song, whether derivative or not. You don't need to know anything about art to enjoy a good painting, whether derivative or not. Knowledge about these fields might very well increase your enjoyment, but you can still enjoy them without it.

On the other hand, for settings with lots of novel concepts you have to invest a lot of effort before you can really enjoy it (one of the problems with Transhuman Space, for instance), and in this case all the work you put into it had better pay off. If you discover halfway through the books that a "new" race, for instance, seems nothing more than elves with a short fur cover, you might not enjoy this setting quite as much.

But if you start with all the common tropes, you have a solid base on which you can expand rapidly, and the "payoff" for the reader comes much sooner.

Tekumel is a niche product. Are you arguing against the creation of niche products? I imagine that Forgotten Realms leaves a lot of M.A.R. Barker fans rather cold.

Not at all - I rather enjoy certain niche products, and I certainly enjoy Tekumel. When such "niche worlds" are well done, they are a pleasure to read.

However, it is far more difficult to actually play in such a world, since all those new elements pretty much require that not only the GM has to be strongly familiar with the world, but the players as well - or else the GM will be stuck with answering all sorts of questions during play, which can bog the sessions down.

 

[evildm]

One of the things that I noticed when I ran Star Wars for the first time (using the old WEG system, way back when), was that I didn't have to explain all the basics: everyone knew their stormtroopers from their wookies. They were able to concentrate on other things like the plot, rather than being constantly sidelined by trying to figure out what was what and how everything fit together.

Sometimes it's good to have a baseline that everyone can be on the same page with. If everything's new and unique, or different for the sake of being different, players and DMs alike could come away from something with completely different interpretations of the same thing.

 

[Mallus]

There is nothing wrong with new content, but there should be some sort of point to it. "Being different" is in itself not enough.

I've heard this before and for the life of me I can't understand 'why not'?

From a the DM/content-creator perspective, making something 'different' need offer nothing more than a creative outlet. It can also represent a way of 'customizing' the game, personalizing it. Isn't that the big buzzword these days, 'user-created content'? Instead of whittling a stick people make their own level mods (or mash-ups, or YouTube videos, or ahem, role-playing game races). It's fun to let your imagination run wild, even if the end result is strictly derivative and not-especially-wild after all. In that context, being different is certainly enough.

And for players? Preferences vary. Most of the people I've played like the oddball deviances from the standard fantasy elements. It's something they look for in campaigns. And don't we see this willingness to embrace farther-out concepts mirrored in the success published supplements like Spelljammer and Planescape?

But if you start with all the common tropes, you have a solid base on which you can expand rapidly, and the "payoff" for the reader comes much sooner.

I don't agree that ruthless efficiency is always the most important criteria when evaluating ones hobbies. Beside, if you always start with common tropes you tend to alienate those consumers who are sick to death of them.

However, it is far more difficult to actually play in such a world, since all those new elements pretty much require that not only the GM has to be strongly familiar with the world, but the players as well - or else the GM will be stuck with answering all sorts of questions during play, which can bog the sessions down.

So because it's, admittedly, more difficult to play in certain settings, you're questioning whether people should play in them at all?

All I can say is that I would, if only for the fact that I get bored of elves and orcs from time to time. Despite their being iconic and all.

 

[Mallus]

If everything's new and unique, or different for the sake of being different, players and DMs alike could come away from something with completely different interpretations of the same thing.

Because that never happens when people are using popular, published materials...

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

I'm with you. I like -- prefer -- the standard fantasy tropes. I want my D&D to be the assumptions in the core rules; to be Greyhawk, Mystara, and the FR as envisioned. I prefer Tolkeinic pseudo-medieval Western Eurpoean fantasy.

Other folks like fancier flavors, but I find vanilla D&D to be quite the classic.

 

[Mallus]

... but I find vanilla D&D to be quite the classic.

Vanilla is a fine flavor.

But the notion that it should be the only flavor seems silly to me. Especially if that prevents one from enjoying ninja-chocolate chip.

 

[evildm]

Because that never happens when people are using popular, published materials...

I don't think anybody's really saying that one way is better than the other (at least, I'm not) and that it should be the only way, I think it's merely a discussion of advantages and disadvantages to either style. I like the completely new and unique stuff that's harder to grasp, but it's ALSO nice to have a baseline to work from sometimes. It all depends on what people are looking for.

I also agree that people might have different interpretations of something as simple as an Elf or whatnot, but the likelihood of it is lessened with something like that, I find.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

That's fine - provided what you want is High/Epic Fantasy.

If you want Sword and Sorcery... the 'standard fantasy tropes' are going to look out of place. If you want Pulp Adventure with a fantastic element, same. Sword and Planet? Science Fantasy? Scientific Romance? Dark Fantasy? Horror?

I don't care for High Fantasy and like Epic Fantasy, if anything, even less (though I can respect the craftsmanship of the latter, actually reading it is a surefire way to put me to sleep). I certainly wouldn't want to game the latter, and the former only slightly more so - that only by dint of familiarity.

On the flip side, I'll put up with a lot to wench and slay my way through a Sword and Sorcery campaign in the style of Conan or Fafhrd and the Mouser, or to sail the fantastic skies of Science Fantasy like Balthier or Cid Highwind.

I don't mind a bit sticking to the standard tropes - provided they're the standard tropes of a genre I like.