Empower vs. Maximize

[Grog]

Maximize, IMHO, is better for sorcerers than for wizards,

Why do you say this?

As far as average damage goes, a Maximized fireball (60 hp) inflicts only 7.5 hp damage, or less than 15%, more than an Empowered fireball (52.5 hp). Is that worth the extra spell level? I'd rather prepare all my fireballs Silent and Empowered than Maximized.

Well, an Empowered fireball inflicts 52.5 hp on average, vs. 35 hp for a regular fireball. So that's 17.5 extra damage for two spell levels, while Maximize gives 25 extra damage for three. Almost the same increase, though it is a bit lower for Maximize.

I guess a lot of it depends on what else you'd be using the higher level slot for.

 

[Xarlen]

I've always just rolled 5d6 for a 10th level Fireball, not multiplied. What would that do to effect the averages? Is it better to multiply, or roll?

 

[Zhure]

Xarlen: rolling the extra 5d6 doesn't change the average, but it changes the bell curve, making it so the extremes are far less likely.

With 10d6 x1.5 your chance of getting minimum (15) is 1:1x6^10. With 15d6, your chance of getting minimum is 1:1x6^15.

Greg

 

[gtJormungand]

oops? i've been cheating for a couple of games now and didn't even know it!

Where can I find the confirmation of this crunchy bit of information, please?

This little bit is found on page 275 of the PH under the heading of Multiplying.

 

[Al'Kelhar]

IMHO Empower Spell has a better "power-to-weight" ratio than Maximize Spell for spells whose variable is based on a d4 or d6 roll. The smaller the die, the better Empower Spell is compared to Maximize Spell, because the maximised "roll" is proportionately less than the average x 1.5 "roll".

Average d4 = 2.5
Empowered average d4 = 3.5
NB: Not 3.75, because of the effects of rounding of results, see below
Maximized d4 = 4
Average difference = 0.5

Average d6 = 3.5
Empowered average d6 = 5
Maximized d6 = 6
Average difference = 1

Average d8 = 4.5
Empowered average d8 = 6.5
Maximized d8 = 8
Average difference = 1.5

And so on... (the average difference between the Enpowered die roll and the Maximized die roll increases by 0.5 per 2 sides of the die).

Since the vast majority of spells use d4s and d6s as their random element, and because an Empowered spell is +2 levels whereas a Maximised is +3 levels, if you have a choice of one of the two as your metamagic feat, always go with Empower Spell.

In relation to calculation of Empowered spells, I believe most of the previous posters have got it wrong. The 1.5 multiple is for each die, which is then rounded down according to the standard rules for rounding of die rolls. Thus, an Empowered fireball at 10th level does not do an average of 52.5 points of damage (35 x 1.5), it does 50 (10 x 5). This is because an Enpowered d6 has an average of 5, not 5.25, as follows:

Result of 1 on d6 -> Empowered result = 1
Result of 2 on d6 -> Empowered result = 3
Result of 3 on d6 -> Empowered result = 4
Result of 4 on d6 -> Empowered result = 6
Result of 5 on d6 -> Empowered result = 7
Result of 6 on d6 -> Empowered result = 9

Average = 30/6 = 5.

Cheers, Al'Kelhar

 

[ruleslawyer]

Why do you say that, Al'Kelhar?

Empower Spell [Metamagic]

Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half. An empowered spell deals half again as much damage as normal, cures half again as many hit points, affects half again as many targets, etc., as appropriate. Saving throws and opposed rolls (such as the one the character makes when the character casts dispel magic) are not affected. Spells without random variables are not affected. An empowered spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level.

Doesn't sound to me like you multiply each die separately; it sounds like you multiply the "damage" dealt by the spell. (What a pain it'd be otherwise, anyway!)

Grog: You're right that Maximize follows a generally straight progression of damage per spell level (although even then, it's suboptimal as compared with Empower), but of course I tend to think that you should get MORE bang for your buck as you add levels by feat; IOW, the damage-by-level curve should follow an accelerating progression, not a level progression. By that standard, Maximize is clearly inferior.

The other major issue, which of course isn't part of the core rules, is what happens when the Improved Metamagic feat comes into play at epic levels. Assuming that you can stack Empower, it becomes a FAR better feat to have than is Maximize. For that matter, the lack of stackability of Maximize is a disadvantage compared to Empower even at non-epic levels.

 

[Maitre Du Donjon]

In relation to calculation of Empowered spells, I believe most of the previous posters have got it wrong. The 1.5 multiple is for each die, which is then rounded down according to the standard rules for rounding of die rolls. Thus, an Empowered fireball at 10th level does not do an average of 52.5 points of damage (35 x 1.5), it does 50 (10 x 5). This is because an Enpowered d6 has an average of 5, not 5.25, as follows:

I think you're thinking this because of the example in the empower spell description, which deals with magic missile. Its stated that you multiply the damage of each individual magic missile (1d4+1 X 1.5). I don't think, however, that you should multiply each die of the fireball, round down, and add them (what a pain it'd be instead) because a 10th level fireball isnt 10 little fireballs that hit the same tardet, as magic missiles.

Maitre D

 

[Stalker0]

I think we should include some other spells in this discussion since talking about fireballs is a very limited use of this spell.

The feats really depend on your personal preference, power or consistentsy. Power is an obvious advantage in itself. However, knowing exactly what damage your going to deal is a tactical advantage. ITs like having two guns, one is more accurate and more powerful than the second, but jams on occasion. The second one never jams.

From my point of view, I prefer empower simply because of the level ups. A +2 to spell level is bad enough, by +3 I can find better spells to use my slots for normally.

 

[AuraSeer]

I don't understand why we care about damage points per level. There's no meaning in the calculation because levels are not fungible. You can't swap Chain Lightning to get two Fireballs, nor a Teleport plus a Magic Missile; each level is a completely different entity. When comparing spells across a level boundary, using the level in a ratio has no significance.

If a 7th-level spell does "10 points per level", and a 6th-level spell does "11 points per level", that doesn't mean the lower-level spell is any better. It still has less total effect, which is all that really matters during combat.

 

[bret]

Bwah, ha, ha!

Fear my Ray of Frost! It does %Divide by Zero Exception% damage / spell level!

That is much higher than any of the other options listed!