Empowered Awaken

[KarinsDad]

I don't really see the problem here.

"All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables."

This IS a random variable effect and is not an opposed roll or a saving throw. Hence, it works.

I agree with Nail. This is how the rules work.

 

[Diirk]

Fireball just creates an explosive burst of flame... the fireball is created by magic, the intensity is not

Seriously tho, I could definately see an argument for the druid casting a more potent spell that awakens a creature to a greater extent.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

As a general rule, I do not really trust the literal reading of the rules when it comes to spells that muck with character generation related issues. There tends to be big holes. Reincarnate is the most obvious example -- mostly repaired in 3.5 but it stills contains some bizarre mysteries in dusty corners.

Those 3d6 rolls smell an awful lot like ad hoc NPC generation rules to me.

A charismatic Druid with a Rod of Metamagic Maximize and some xp to spare could create an amazing stealth army... Eagles, wolves, bears with Ranger, Fighter, Barbarian levels and huge pools of skill points as they level up.

 

[KarinsDad]

A charismatic Druid with a Rod of Metamagic Maximize and some xp to spare could create an amazing stealth army... Eagles, wolves, bears with Ranger, Fighter, Barbarian levels and huge pools of skill points as they level up.

Doubtful.

These creatures would be smart, but they would have no class levels whatsoever until they too gained enough experience.

The earliest a Druid could do this is 13th level. Say he Empower Awakens a Brown Bear.

Big deal.

The Bear may be smart, but it is still a 6 HD creature and it cost 250 XP to make him smart.

Adventuring around with a 13th level Druid, a 6 HD Bear will soon be toast. Even adventuring around with a 9th level Druid who is using up 250 XP and a charge off of a Rod of Metamagic Maximize, the bear will be an inferior companion (and personally, I think Rods of Metamagic are the broken aspect here, not metamagicking an Awaken spell, feats should be unique and not accessible via magic items IMO).

I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill where even the molehill doesn't exist.

 

[spade413]

Well, I'm looking at the Awaken spell, and in brief, I'm seeing that it is changing some stats of the recipient of the spell (a creature's Int, for example) or granting stats that the recipient didn't already have (all of the mental stats for a plant).
There is another set of spells that allow for effectively the same thing: The Animate line. Lets look at Animate Object. It says to use the stats as presented by the MM. Fine and good. I take this to mean that I have granted it these stats. Well, one of those stats, and the only one that has a "variable, numeric effect", is the object's HD. So, if I'm using the stats the MM gives me, then a table that had no HD before is granted 4d10+30 by the Animate spell, for the duration of it's effect. Well, that's a "varible, numeric effect", so let's Empower it. Now it 6d10 + 30. Bah, let's Maximize it as well. Why not? Sure, I'd need a Metamagic Rod, but no biggie.
I'm not saying that I think this is or isn't allowed by the rules, and I'm sure someone will argue semantics with me, but it seems that if not outside the letter of the law, then it's at least outside of it's spirit. IMHO, a DM who wants to use an isolated Empowered Maximized Awaken to create a mastermind chipmunk just to mess with his PCs is one thing. But, a high lvl Druid PC dopping a couple thousand XP to fortify his forest with an army of super charismatic paladin tumbleweeds is something else entirely. (Yes, I know they'd have to lvl on their own, but it's a tumbleweed. One kicked my butt IRL the other day, and that was just a normal one I was trying to get out of my yard. I'm sure the super int/wis/cha model would lvl pretty fast. )

 

[Saeviomagy]

I'm not saying that I think this is or isn't allowed by the rules, and I'm sure someone will argue semantics with me, but it seems that if not outside the letter of the law, then it's at least outside of it's spirit.

The argument will be that the spell itself has no variable component - it creates a medium animated object. The fact that medium animated objects have a variable component doesn't matter - the spell itself doesn't have a variable component.

 

[Diirk]

Even if you make a super bear with 24ish int (maximised and empowered), so what? It will think fondly of you sure... it won't be adventuring with you, tho. Unless you take leadership and convince it to be your cohort, in which case its HD + LA = Your HD - 2 ... and it suddenly looks a lot less impressive.

Otherwise its just an NPC that happens to like you. So it might do you an occasional favour, but then on the other hand it will occasionally expect you to do it favours in return... I'm not seeing the massive imbalance.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I really do not care about whether it is balanced or not powerwise. I find the idea that a powerful Druid could so easily generate entire races of superplants and superanimals that have the right stuff to rule the world to be an unmitigated disaster flavorwise. It is flat out bizarre even by the standards of D&D.

I would further note that trite old stereotypical Druid as the champion of the Green would be well motivated to do exactly that.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

Wait a moment, I don't use rolled ability scores for anything in my campaign*; Point buy for everything, be it 15, 20 or 25. For a 'non' ability I assume a '10' has to be built with point buy, e.g. a vampire NPC needs to lose 2 points for their 'non' Con score.

Anyway, my point is that '3d6' ability scores must be replaced with 15 pt buy as that is the same power level. How can 15 pt buy be empowered or maximized?

Before you say "house rules", I would point out that point buy is supported by the RAW and can be totally adopted as a stat generation method. Carrying this further, what about campaigns where everyone rolls 4d6?

I think that 3d6 is merely a baseline generation method for 'unnamed' NPC's which is replaced by whatever generation method the DM is instituting within his campaign. I would consider the awakened creature as becoming a fully fledged NPC and no spell is going to grant it scores beyond what an NPC should have. I accept that the RAW suggest otherwise, but ability score generation is as close to sacred as exists within the game, imho.

*(not entirely true, the PC's were given special exemption to roll 4d6 & HPs or accept 25pt buy and average, nothing else has this privilege)

 

[KarinsDad]

I really do not care about whether it is balanced or not powerwise. I find the idea that a powerful Druid could so easily generate entire races of superplants and superanimals that have the right stuff to rule the world to be an unmitigated disaster flavorwise. It is flat out bizarre even by the standards of D&D.

I would further note that trite old stereotypical Druid as the champion of the Green would be well motivated to do exactly that.

So, your real problem is with the Awaken spell itself which does exactly what you state here, not with Empowering or Maximizing it so that a 6 HD Bear has an Int > 15 instead of 10ish.