Empowered Awaken

[Ridley's Cohort]

So, your real problem is with the Awaken spell itself which does exactly what you state here, not with Empowering or Maximizing it so that a 6 HD Bear has an Int > 15 instead of 10ish.

No. We are talking about Awaken plus Empower/Maximize.

I think it would be reasonable to say that in a fantasy context a race of, say, bears that are categorically bigger, stronger, faster, hardier, smarter, more perceptive, stronger in heart and mind overall than even heroic humans might seem of earthshaking import. If were we to use just a little imagination that is.

 

[Nail]

I really do not care about whether it is balanced or not powerwise. I find the idea that a powerful Druid could so easily generate entire races of superplants and superanimals .....

Right here is the problem. You don't like the Awaken spell! And that's okay, really.

I seem to recall a poster awhile ago expounding on the virtues of the Awaken spell. His group's druid had a "veritable army" of spies throughout their home city (shrubs, squirrels, birds). This was without any metamagic feats applied. The DM handled it. IIRC.

Although it is certainly possible to get a plant with a 27 Int, Wis, and Chr, it's not all that likely. You do have to roll 3d6, after all, even if it's only for the empower. And those awakened plants and animals have neither class levels nor compulsions to follow the druid's orders. It's not that bad, really!

By RAW, metamagicked Awakens seem allowable.

Still, YMMV. And I have to admit, as a DM I'd have to think about using my Rule Zero Nerf Bat(tm).

 

[Nail]

I think it would be reasonable to say that in a fantasy context a race of, say, bears that are categorically bigger, stronger, faster, hardier, smarter, more perceptive, stronger in heart and mind overall than even heroic humans might seem of earthshaking import. If were we to use just a little imagination that is.

You mean, as opposed to some other race? Like say: Dragons, Mindflayers, Storm Giants, Demons, Devils, Angels, ........

I think there's plenty "master races" to go around.......

 

[satori01]

I seem to recall a poster awhile ago expounding on the virtues of the Awaken spell. His group's druid had a "veritable army" of spies throughout their home city (shrubs, squirrels, birds). This was without any metamagic feats applied. The DM handled it. IIRC.

Which is me. Awaken can be a trying spell for a DM, and it will test your skills of adjudication. The first thing about Awaken is that the plants and animals Awakened are only favorably disposed to the Druid, they are not extra animal companions. I tend to look on Awakened creatures as children, and tend to give them jeu june personality traits. Treat and develop Awakened creatures as you would an Important NPC, (because they are), give them their own flavor and goals and motivations, have them mature as people in their own right, and you will be less scared of the concept.

Metamagic rods however I do not allow.... talk about crazy... rod of maximize spell my a$$

By the RAW, I think a Druid could empower or maximize this spell and the variable effects no questions asked. A character using their Eldritch knowledge to create a extremely smart creature seems part and parcel of D&D and horror literature,(Shelly anyone?).

I could definetely see some Little Man Tate issues here, as the super intelligent creature that Nail envisions, either looks down with disapointment on its Druidic creatir, as it goes throw the growing pains of realizing that it is much smarter then it's druidic "father" or "mother".

I could also see a creature that smart resenting having knowledge and reason being forced upon it. After all the ultra awakened tiger might rue the day when ethics where slammed into its head, ruining the pure adrenaline of the hunt, and filling it's idle hours with thoughts of guilt and the rights of creatures. Your Druid player might also feel differently about the Awaken spell when he or she is disturbed from their spell preparing slumber to counsel the Awakened critter in their momement of moral crisis.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Right here is the problem. You don't like the Awaken spell!

No. We are talking about Awaken plus Empower/Maximize. I am happy with the Awaken spell as is. Not sure how to be more clear about this without being rude.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

You mean, as opposed to some other race? Like say: Dragons, Mindflayers, Storm Giants, Demons, Devils, Angels, ........

I think there's plenty "master races" to go around.......

Well considering the last person in most campaigns to cast a spell and toss a little metamagic on it to create one of those beings was probably a major important God I think you are within striking distance of my point...

 

[KarinsDad]

No. We are talking about Awaken plus Empower/Maximize.

I think it would be reasonable to say that in a fantasy context a race of, say, bears that are categorically bigger, stronger, faster, hardier, smarter, more perceptive, stronger in heart and mind overall than even heroic humans might seem of earthshaking import. If were we to use just a little imagination that is.

Except that they are not bigger, stronger, or faster. Most animals do not increase in size when you increase their hit dice. And if they do, that happens with normal Awaken precisely the same as with Empowered Awaken.

They are smarter (Int), hardier (+2 HD), and more perceptive (if you use skill points to improve their perception type skills). But, the only thing that really increases due to Empower or Maximize is their skill points and their Int (and maybe a single point of Cha). Everything else is EXACTLY the same as normal Awaken, hence, your real problem appears to be with the Awaken spell itself since they get most of the benefits there and not from Empowered or Maximized.

Think about what you are claiming. A 5th level spell is ok, but a 7th level spell is not ok because it doubles the skill points (from 2 to 4 per HD) on average (and you could do that with a lucky roll at 5th level). Huh?


Also, do you want an army of SMART creatures who will question orders and have a higher propensity to stay alive at all costs, or ones who are dumber? Historically, armies have always attempted to keep the smarter people as officers and the dumber people as soldiers precisely because they do not want people disobeying orders because they are too smart.

A Druid who Empower Awakens as opposed to just Awaken in order to create an army is making a mistake. His army will leave on its own quicker. A Druid who does it to have a smart creature to talk to on lonely nights in the wilderness is probably not making a mistake.

 

[Nail]

Well considering the last person in most campaigns to cast a spell and toss a little metamagic on it to create one of those beings was probably a major important God I think you are within striking distance of my point...

Touche!

 

[Wish]

You guys aren't thinking big enough. Bust out the Epic Level Handbook and have that epic druid use Intensify Spell on it. Somewhere, there's a rosebush with 36 Int, Wis, and Cha.

 

[Nail]

Which is me.

A-ha!

I could definetely see some Little Man Tate issues here, as the super intelligent creature that Nail envisions, either looks down with disapointment on its Druidic creatir, as it goes throw the growing pains of realizing that it is much smarter then it's druidic "father" or "mother".

Exactly. That could be mucho fun!