Empowering an empowered spell, can you?

[Nyeshet]

No, not really. Take a look at the epic level rules for advancing saves (i.e. +1 to all saves for all classes every two levels) and you'll see why Heightening the spells is an exercise in futility.

Assuming you use the system as stated. I have rarely had need to work on epic level NPCs or PCs, but when I have I assumed the saves and attack bonus continue as normal. No one ever reached high enough for seven attacks - let alone eight (the maximum possible assuming the PC is completely surrounded and hits each foe once) so I never really felt it was an issue. It was one of the only ways the non-casters could come close to keeping up.

For some odd reason, upon gaining 20th level every class gains Good saves in all three saves and Poor attack. I suppose they were worried about 45+ levels and 8+ attacks per level. Once you've hit everything once, do you hit them all again - before they even have a chance to react? Sounds epic to me, but it could be a quick trip to TPK in an epic encounter. But really, what is the difference between that and a 20th level fighter against three foes surrounding him?

Anyway, that's enough of my (one of very many) problems with the epic rules.

As for the thread question: Why not? It did not break anything in 3E (although it did allow for some clever problems for DMs). Nerfing both the meta feats and the spells was overkill. Besides, as has already been mentioned, there is rarely enough metamagic to allow for filling all epic spell slots.

In regards to the meta-feats, wasn't there one that allowed a spell to resist dispelling. What I mean is: the spell, if dispelled, was instead neutralized for 1d4 rounds or something like that. If you combine that with Persistant spell you may have a good way to have buffs all day long. I know it is impossible pre-epic to combine the two, so the level adjustment must have been high, but I forget the exact details.

 

[Bront]

No one ever reached high enough for seven attacks - let alone eight (the maximum possible assuming the PC is completely surrounded and hits each foe once) so I never really felt it was an issue.

Actualy, your iterative attacks can all be against the same opponent, so there is technicaly no limit to the number you can get, and how many opponents are around you is irrelivent, as long as there is at least one to continue to make attacks against.

 

[ARandomGod]

... No one ever reached high enough for seven attacks - let alone eight ...

That's sad. I can get seven attacks by level eight... It takes a little effort, but it's doable. You could probably get more if you were to try and push it. (And with normal +0 ECL races, I'm not referring to anthormorphic squids or anything silly like that.

 

[Nyeshet]

I was talking about BAB (+35/+30/+25/+20/+15/+10/+5). This is achieved upon gaining level 35 for High BAB classes, level 47 for Mid BAB classes, and level 70 for Low BAB classes. My "epic" campaigns have never reached level 35. Which is just as well as I compute the number of deific classes for any given deity with 40 + (5 * Divine Rank). Or 40 + (3 * Divine Rank) for those dependent on worship. Most deities are a little of each (40 + [Indep DvR * 5] + [Dep DvR * 3]).

Either way, if a PC ever reached level 43 they would have a number of classes equal to that of a DvR 1 (dependent) deity, and that would just muck up too many aspects of my campaign, really. Granted, this is nothing compared to the higher ranking deities - which have around 100 HD in class levels, and the current lowest ranking deity is around 1 indep / 2 dep DvR (~50 HD). So even though the PCs may - technically - go as high as they wish and are able, the issue of fighting deities has never come up. With the least of the deities having LA nearing or surpassing +10 and over 20 more class levels than they have ever amassed, it would be suicide even for the most epic characters in my campaign world. Which is the way it should be, I think.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Well, you can't get more than 4 iterative attacks due to BAB.

 

[Rystil Arden]

In regards to the meta-feats, wasn't there one that allowed a spell to resist dispelling. What I mean is: the spell, if dispelled, was instead neutralized for 1d4 rounds or something like that.

Tenacious Spell only works for one, prechosen spell (such as Shapechange) and no others.

 

[Pyrex]

They keep changing the rules on me. It is a situation that just never comes up so I was unaware of the change. Seems like a silly change too, using the same meta magic feat on a spell was never a problem.

Same here. Been playing 3.5 since they released it and I'm still finding little changes I never noticed before.

But I agree. It's usually not broken to allow the same MM feat multiple times.

*Has fond memories of deliberately provoking AOO's while protected by a double-empowered Fire Shield*

 

[Silveras]

I was talking about BAB (+35/+30/+25/+20/+15/+10/+5). This is achieved upon gaining level 35 for High BAB classes, .... .

Actually, it is NEVER achieved by anyone without a houserule.
BAB stops at level 20. You gain an Epic Attack Bonus that stacks with BAB from then on, but BAB never rises above +20/+15/+10/+5. Your 35th level character, by the book, has +28/+23/+18/+13 (BAB of +20/+15/+10/+5 and Epic AB of +8 applied to each).

Epic Attack Bonus: Similarly, the character’s base attack bonus does not increase after character level reaches 20th. However, the character does receive a cumulative +1 epic bonus on all attacks at every odd-numbered level beyond 20th, as shown on Table: Epic Save and Epic Attack Bonuses. Any time a feat, prestige class, or other rule refers to your base attack bonus, use the sum of your base attack bonus and epic attack bonus.

 

[Veril]

But I agree. It's usually not broken to allow the same MM feat multiple times.

Multiply stacking metamagics does allow a number of very nasty effects. The most obvious is Extend spell. Anything with a duration of 1 hour a level, given 2-3 extra levels becomes 3-4 hours per level, and that means you can cast it the previous day and have it running.
Mage Armour, Greater Magic Weapon/Fang, Magic Vestments, Darkvision, False Life. Any spell with 10mins/level becomes 20-30 being that much more useful lasting for much longer.

Increasing the area of a spell with widen spell becomes frighteningly massive. Take a fireball and use widen up from 3rd the 9th level. It now has a 120ft radiius, (240ft diameter) - that's just huge and awefully massive.

Then take some spells that do stuff like ability damage and empower them....Ray of Enfeeblement empowered twice (1D6+5)*2 str drain, no save. OUCH. A doubely empowered Enervation (from 4th up to 8th level) is doing the same as Energy Drain (a 9th level spell).

Extending the duration of some debuffs

 

[Fieari]

http://www.immortalshandbook.com/freestuff9.htm

These feats might help out a bit. Specifically "Metamagic Freedom" at the bottom of the page. Worth an epic feat, I think, because of the very things you're mentioning-- 120' radius fireballs and spells that last days or even weeks. At epic levels, you should be able to do such things. Sub epic? Not so much, in my opinion.