Level Up (A5E) End the 5 minute work-day by making all classes work off short rests.

[DND_Reborn]

hey, we walked for 59 minutes... better not get in a fight!

Darn right! LOL

FWIW, I have no issue with the other interpretation if you want a grittier game style (my preference), but in this respect at our table I seem to be alone and the other players and DM feel a brief interruption like 30-seconds of combat, shouldn't stop the benefits of the rest.

 

[clearstream]

Darn right! LOL

FWIW, I have no issue with the other interpretation if you want a grittier game style (my preference), but in this respect at our table I seem to be alone and the other players and DM feel a brief interruption like 30-seconds of combat, shouldn't stop the benefits of the rest.

I think that conclusion doesn't give enough weight to why rests are in the game at all. If you take my polarities - can it be interrupted AND can players choose when - then the combination no/yes delivers a mechanically meaningless outcome.

That is, if players can rest when they want and it can't be interrupted, the rest system breaks and its purpose of fostering ability diversity and decision-making is undermined.

 

[Phoebasss]

I think that conclusion doesn't give enough weight to why rests are in the game at all. If you take my polarities - can it be interrupted AND can players choose when - then the combination no/yes delivers a mechanically meaningless outcome.

That is, if players can rest when they want and it can't be interrupted, the rest system breaks and its purpose of fostering ability diversity and decision-making is undermined.

There is at least one limitation on player's abilities to take a long rest, and that's that you can only do it once a day. Whether that's actually a particularly useful limitation or if it leads to even worse gameplay than the alternative is up for debate. Honestly, if the GM is dead set on controlling long rests in 5e without moving to a roughly per x encounters rule, they have to provide time limits on what the players are trying to accomplish or its going to encourage weird decisions like 5 minute work days or 16 hour rest periods. Granted, I think instant short rests do a good enough job solving this in parties which benefit from them.

 

[clearstream]

There is at least one limitation on player's abilities to take a long rest, and that's that you can only do it once a day. Whether that's actually a particularly useful limitation or if it leads to even worse gameplay than the alternative is up for debate. Honestly, if the GM is dead set on controlling long rests in 5e without moving to a roughly per x encounters rule, they have to provide time limits on what the players are trying to accomplish or its going to encourage weird decisions like 5 minute work days or 16 hour rest periods. Granted, I think instant short rests do a good enough job solving this in parties which benefit from them.

Yup, I think instant rests is one pole. What makes clear sense is that they can't be interrupted and players can't choose when they take them (because if they could, it would be the same as not having resource limitations). I can think of a few classes of mechanic to riff off -

1. Class 1 - reliable - instant short rest at the end of each other combat. Obvious fault, characters might as well spend all unspent resources in each other combat. Also observably hurts SOD.
2. Class 2 - random - chance of a short rest at the end of each combat. One way to do this would be to gain 1 rest die per combat. At the end of each combat roll all rest dice. On a 7+, get a short rest and empty the dice pool (lose the accumulated rest dice). The point here is to have RNG protection: you'll eventually be certain of resting. I tried this, players hate it. They hate not knowing when they will rest.
3. Class 3 - points - accumulate points in combat somehow. When you have N points, you must spend them to gain a rest. I've tried this, and it becomes problematic if characters can get out of sync on rest points, e.g. by dying.

None of these methods is particularly good at differentiating rest types, which is a shame because the short long difference is worth having. We see across many games a worthwhile tiering of ability power, from weak-use-as-you-like, to strong-use-a-few-times, to ultimate-use-once, across some number of combats (the "adventuring day"), to use-once-and-remove-from-game. Four tiers that open plenty of design space.

A "rest" rule is needed to create each tier. No rests gives tier 1 and tier 4. Short rests adds tier 2. They're really just use-recovery rules. We need a second rest rule to add tier 3. Classes might include -

1. Class A - reliable - instant long rest replaces every third short rest. Obvious faults, tracking plus same faults as Class 1.
2. Class B - random - one could accumulate a long rest die type. Or have a result that replaces the short rest with a long rest. Requires some thought to resolve the probability distribution, but quite resolvable. Players will foreseeably hate it.
3. Class C - points - accumulate long rest points somehow. I've tried this: it's fairly gruesome.

You can see how easy it is to work out permutations, once you know the purpose and dimensions of the mechanical space. But all versions have some pretty thorny problems in play.

Trying them out is why I flipped to the whole other set of narrative-or-time-based rests, that players choose when they take, but can be interrupted.

 

[Phoebasss]

Class 1 - reliable - instant short rest at the end of each other combat. Obvious fault, characters might as well spend all unspent resources in each other combat.

I don't know that I consider this a fault. It's good for players to feel free to use their cool abilities. It's why they made this character, it's what they're here in your game to DO. It's fine to encourage them to actually do it. Combats where everyone, even short rest characters, are holding back out of fear they won't get a rest until the next long rest suck. Let the monk spend their Ki. Encourage them to do it. It's what they're supposed to do.
Actually I revise my opinion from the first sentence of this post. I know I don't consider a fault of this system, I consider it a massive plus of it!

 

[clearstream]

I don't know that I consider this a fault. It's good for players to feel free to use their cool abilities. It's why they made this character, it's what they're here in your game to DO. It's fine to encourage them to actually do it. Combats where everyone, even short rest characters, are holding back out of fear they won't get a rest until the next long rest suck. Let the monk spend their Ki. Encourage them to do it. It's what they're supposed to do.
Actually I revise my opinion from the first sentence of this post. I know I don't consider a fault of this system, I consider it a massive plus of it!

There is out there a whole line of valuable design discussion of why having weak powers makes strong powers cooler. A character's strongest power feels more powerful if and only if they cannot use it as often as their weak powers.

 

[Phoebasss]

There is out there a whole line of valuable design discussion of why having weak powers makes strong powers cooler. A character's strongest power feels more powerful if and only if they cannot use it as often as their weak powers.

Well, yeah. That's what a long rest per 4 or 6 encounters is for. And there is still the first encounter of each set of two where they have to consider whether to use their short rest abilities. Not to mention the DM is theoretically supposed to be giving the players 2 short rests per long rest anyway.
EDIT: Short rest abilities probably shouldn't be the strongest thing you can do, they should be a thing you can do a bunch, but still limited slightly so you don't want to do it every round unless you've been holding back.

 

[Stalker0]

I don't know that I consider this a fault. It's good for players to feel free to use their cool abilities. It's why they made this character, it's what they're here in your game to DO. It's fine to encourage them to actually do it. Combats where everyone, even short rest characters, are holding back out of fear they won't get a rest until the next long rest suck. Let the monk spend their Ki. Encourage them to do it. It's what they're supposed to do.
Actually I revise my opinion from the first sentence of this post. I know I don't consider a fault of this system, I consider it a massive plus of it!

i agree. It also helps solve the issue that groups have widely variable encounters per day.

if the focus of power is strong in each encounter, then the number of encounters can be in service of the plot, not as a forced balancing mechanic

 

[clearstream]

i agree. It also helps solve the issue that groups have widely variable encounters per day.

if the focus of power is strong in each encounter, then the number of encounters can be in service of the plot, not as a forced balancing mechanic

I think you can try and make it work within an encounter. Which seems to be where you land following that line of thought. I suspect that doesn't give enough scope for power diversity because they will be expressed at a rate of about one a turn and there will be only something like 3-10 turns. Encounters will feel more similar, because characters will use all their strongest powers in each one. One might argue that the burden of design then falls on matching powers to foes or circumstances, so that I will use one-shot power X instead of Y because X is better in the present situation.

Still, it would be appropriate ground for advanced rules to explore. It's a tight scope that is likely hard to design for, with a lot of knock-ons throughout the system.

 

[Stalker0]

Encounters will feel more similar, because characters will use all their strongest powers in each one. One might argue that the burden of design then falls on matching powers to foes or circumstances, so that I will use one-shot power X instead of Y because X is better in the present situation.

I think the first statement is a bit of a fallacy because of what you said in the second.

Just like a fighter may use action surge to fight in one combat, and use it to rush and save a passerby in the second...encounter design is a key factor in which powers are used