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Level Up (A5E) End the 5 minute work-day by making all classes work off short rests.


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vincegetorix

Jewel of the North
Above and beyond all else I would like to see the end of the 5 minute work-day by making all classes based around short rests. Every class should regain class features on a short rest.

This post from this thread seems like a good start for spellcasters.
I would prefer on long rests because 1-hours short rests are a little wonky to justify in a day. That's vhy I do 5 minutes short rests, max 2 short rests per long rest.

But I agree with the sentiment.
 

tetrasodium

Hero
Supporter
Rests need to not simply be "we decide to avoid forced march & sleep for the night" too. There's all sorts of ways to correct the problem but having some classes be long rest dependent while others rely on short rests makes it needlessly complicated & throws sand in the gears of what should be an easy fix
 


Xeviat

Adventurer
Supporter
I would prefer short rests if they were like 10-15 mins, but that wouldn't be compatible with everything. Plus, as much as I love short rest recovery (4E, my long lost love ...), Long rests may feel more D&D. Resource management is a big part of D&D.

It's a struggle. Daily makes designing adventures easy, but only if everything has a time constraint. Short short rests (assumed to be after every fight, unless it's a gauntlet) are easy to design for too. 1 hour short rests are very hard; it either has to be 2 medium or one deadly between each short rest, or 3-4 easy, which constrains adventure design.
 


CleverNickName

Limit Break Dancing
I'd rather eliminate the 5-minute workday by using the rules for "gritty realism" in the DMG. Short rests = 8 hours, Long rests = 1 week. Resource management becomes a lot more important, and natural healing makes a little bit more sense. The decision to "go nova" in an encounter becomes a lot more important, and not to be made lightly. The party will be a lot less likely to take a long rest after each battle if they know it will cause them to fail their mission (or die of old age).

But this is more a matter of preference for the campaign and pacing. It's not really an "advanced" option for 5E.
 


Kinematics

Explorer
while we are at it, make short rest a SHORT rest.

1hr is not a short rest.

If you can manage to get hour of downtime from combat in 99% of the cases you can get 8 hrs of down time.

5-15mins is a short rest.
A couple jobs I've had have mandated 1 hour lunches. Never mind that I can walk over to the cafeteria, get and eat lunch, and be back in a half hour. (In places where I bring my lunch, it's closer to 15 minutes.) What do I do with the other half hour? Dunno, not our problem, but by God you better not try to work during that time.

Back when I was doing sports in high school, even after a couple hours of exercise, cool down and stretching and recovery was under a half hour. Needing a full hour of rest just feels wrong, unless you're including hanging out and going home. Which isn't really in the same category as "short rest".

Overall, I can see a half hour being enough, with a little buffer built in. An hour is just way too much. 15 minutes is kinda OK, though it does feel a little short if you're including hit dice usage. Any sort of activity that I can imagine doing feels like 30 minutes is more than adequate to recover from physical exertion.

For a PHB example, a monk recovers his ki on a short rest, requiring 30 minutes of meditation. That seems to imply that 30 minutes is adequate for a short rest.

You always have the option to spend more time, if you want to do other stuff, but reducing the minimum from 1 hr to 30 minutes should be perfectly reasonable.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
The 5-minute work day isn't a problem if a) it's what the characters would do in the interests of self-preservation and b) they're not under any time pressure.

The problem comes when different class abilities are designed around different durations of rest. Someone can correct me as I might be forgetting something, but I don't recall 'short rest' being a thing in 0e-1e-2e: most things were either daily (spells), or x-times-per-day (many devices), or at-will (turn undead, swing weapon, etc.). So instead of making everything 'short rest' why not base it all on time - everything resets after the first 8-hour rest after midnight.
 

tetrasodium

Hero
Supporter
I'd rather eliminate the 5-minute workday by using the rules for "gritty realism" in the DMG. Short rests = 8 hours, Long rests = 1 week. Resource management becomes a lot more important, and natural healing makes a little bit more sense. The decision to "go nova" in an encounter becomes a lot more important, and not to be made lightly. The party will be a lot less likely to take a long rest after each battle if they know it will cause them to fail their mission (or die of old age).

But this is more a matter of preference for the campaign and pacing. It's not really an "advanced" option for 5E.
It's great to say that, but the gritty realism rules don't end there and cause massive problems. Now you have short rest classes getting a short rest every day & several per "adventure dayweek" or the short rest classes are completely screwed & not getting any reasonable number of short rests per adventuring day/week. Then you have the massive problem with all those "regain x charges each day at $time" effectively becoming at will cantrip level items that can be expected to recharge from 1 charge left to full each short rest.
 

dnd4vr

The Smurfiest Wizard Ever!
Ok, so every once in a while this "5MWD" thing keeps popping up...

Just so I know I have it right, basically it is people going nuts with the PC powers and then wanting to rest all the time so they get it all back, right?

Am I missing something???
 

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
Ok, so every once in a while this "5MWD" thing keeps popping up...

Just so I know I have it right, basically it is people going nuts with the PC powers and then wanting to rest all the time so they get it all back, right?

Am I missing something???
13th age gets around it by having a "day" be based on number of encounters... which is a big encouragement not to use all those daily powers at once. It's also a big encouragement for the players to annoyingly wax philosophical to the DM about how long their boat ride with 7 sunrises and sunsets, but no encounters, was.
 

dnd4vr

The Smurfiest Wizard Ever!
13th age gets around it by having a "day" be based on number of encounters... which is a big encouragement not to use all those daily powers at once. It's also a big encouragement for the players to annoyingly wax philosophical to the DM about how long their boat ride with 7 sunrises and sunsets, but no encounters, was.
Having powers refresh after "X" encounters is too predictable to my tastes.

Anyway, how would making everything refresh on a short rest stop the 5MWD? It would just encourage every class to get in a short rest after each encounter. As is it, only certain classes want more frequent short rests. Long rests are just once per day, so that IMO would remove the 5MWD.

Again, unless I am missing something...? shrug
 

CubicsRube

Adventurer
Supporter
As above, I don't think it meets the criteria for Level Up.

However there is an easy houserule if you want to get all short rest and long rest powers on the same timing - multiply all short rest abilities by 3 and allow that they only reset on a long rest.
 

Honestly what I'd rather see is some kind of system (rules, DM guidance, whatever) that gates short and long rests behind something other than DM permission. In other words, something that would make the decision to take rests a hard-to-optimize tradeoff, so that players have more incentives to push on before resting.
 

guachi

Explorer
I ditched short rests and converted everything to long rests. And made long rests a week... but PCs got a little of their abilities back each day.

In practice, this meant PCs could do one part of an adventure using a week's worth of abilities and then transition to another adventure or a different part of the adventure in a week or so. This enabled longer, overland adventures with scattered encounters or a dungeon with an adventuring days worth of encounters. Sometimes the PCs would really have to think just how long they wanted to rest weighing the resources they'd get back over falling behind the bad guys.

The campaign really made it feel like the PCs worked for everything they had. Anything could be dangerous when you are low on resources. One adventure, the PCs did the entire second half of B7 Rahasia completely out of resources - no HD, no spell slots, no sorcery points, etc. They were under some time pressure (rescue the princess before the solstice so a wedding could occur on time) and pulled it off. It made a dungeon the PCs clearly outleveled one that was quite thrilling in the end.
 

Raith5

Adventurer
Ideally I would like to see the operational nature of long/short rests working at the level of the campaign. I dont think that having different classes with different processes of long/short rests adds that much and creates complications.
 

Back when I was doing sports in high school, even after a couple hours of exercise, cool down and stretching and recovery was under a half hour. Needing a full hour of rest just feels wrong, unless you're including hanging out and going home. Which isn't really in the same category as "short
I’d say fighting for your lives against monsters we couldn’t conceive of us a bit more than “exercise”. Considering the insanity of dnd combats I think 1 hour is more than fair.

But your just not going to win debating these details, some think an hour is crazy long, 5 min-10 min is crazy short...there is no consensus. It’s the DMs prerogative to decide how frequent he wants his party to rest, and to adjust his timing and frequency to match.

But ultimately, the fundamental reason for the 5 minute workday has nothing to do with the rest duration... it’s because in the system rest = fun.

rest gives people their toys back, lets them be at their most powerful And let’s them do the “cool stuff”.

as a player, there is no mechanical reason not to rest. Therefore the dm has to insert plot reasons (monsters are coming, adventure is on the clock) to get players to go against their natural desire.

The ideal heroic system would reward characters for pushing their boundaries, unlocking powers and abilities that can only be reached when their almost out of gas. How many action movies have the hero fight the swarm of guys, get all beat up...andyet bring out his best moves for the final boss. Dnd is not designed that way.

until the system gives mechanical incentives to push instead of rest...players will always want to rest...and the 5 minute workday will always remain. It’s that simple
 

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