Energy Substitution (Sonic)

[Thanee]

Cold: +1 damage per die. Fortitude save for half.
Electricity: +2 to the save DC, and +2 to manifester level checks to overcome Power Resistance.
Fire: +1 Point of damage per die.
Sonic -1 point of damage per die and ignores an object's hardness.

Yep, that's at least a good idea to make sonic attacks weaker (CA also puts the sonic spells at an average of -1 point of damage per die).

Hopefully they will make this more consistent in the 4th edition. Right now it's a mess.

Bye
Thanee

 

[KarinsDad]

Aside/Hijack: How does everyone handle using something like Knowledge (Planes) to determine what a specific resistances, immunities and vulnerabilities a given creature type/sub-type has?

DC 20? 25? 30? gets you a partial list? "They're from the burning hells, but don't mind cold either!" Or maybe you get to ask the DM if they have any resistances/vulnerabilities to a particular form of Energy like Acid?

Obviously you may not know much if you've done no research and haven't interacted with any, but I know this came up in our game on several occasions after we'd fought several Anarchic and/or Tanar'ri creatures, etc. I kept wanting the Wizard's player to clue in more before throwing/memorizing a Fireball vs Thunderball (yes, we love that name! ) or a Lightning Bolt or something since it didn't really do much the last time we encountered a similar creature!

I think DC 20 should be used for more common knowledge like attacks or things easily observable (e.g. poison, 5 attacks per round, high AC, spells it can cast; stuff like that) and DC 30 should be used for most defenses (resistance, damage reduction, spell resistance).

The reason for this is that you really do not know how many hit points a creature has, so your Fireball might not damage it a lot because it has a LOT of hit points, or it might not damage it a lot because it has Fire Resistance. Just fighting it might not give you (or anyone else who has ever fought it) much information here.

Even in the case of Spell Resistance, is the spell not affecting it because it made a saving throw, or is it not affecting it because it has Spell Resistance? And, even if you cast a spell against it that does not have a saving throw, but does have spell resistance, it still does not tell you how high of a spell resistance it has if the spell does not affect it.

I think most defenses should be difficult to discern with Knowledge Planes.

Things that can observed (actions the creature can take, spells it can cast, etc.) should be easier to discern with Knowledge Planes.

 

[moritheil]

Yep, that's at least a good idea to make sonic attacks weaker (CA also puts the sonic spells at an average of -1 point of damage per die).

Hopefully they will make this more consistent in the 4th edition. Right now it's a mess.

Bye
Thanee

Clearly, they need to hire some EN worlders to write 4ed!

 

[werk]

Okay thank you, i should hang out more often on en world i learn a lot of thing.

I hear that! I didn't realize they had edited down the list of energy types.

Thanks ENWorld!

 

[Ero Gaki]

Blarg, I guess I'm the only one who isn't pleased that they took away sonic substitution. It was nice for the PC's to have a weapon against outsiders. Now the outsiders have too many strengths.

 

[KarinsDad]

Blarg, I guess I'm the only one who isn't pleased that they took away sonic substitution. It was nice for the PC's to have a weapon against outsiders. Now the outsiders have too many strengths.

Two many???

10th level Wizard casts Fireball. It can do about 25 points of damage (on average with a failed save and made spell resistance) against multiple 10 Resistance Outsiders.

10th level Wizard casts Empowered Fireball. It can about 42 points of damage (on average with a failed save and made spell resistance) against multiple 10 Resistance Outsiders.

10th level Wizard casts Sonic Substitution Fireball. It can do about 35 points of damage (on average with a failed save and made spell resistance) against multiple 10 Resistance Outsiders.

The last two were single feats, the only difference is that Empowered takes up a higher level slot. But as can be seen, the Wizard or Sorcerer PC STILL has "weapons against outsiders", just not the ability to totally ignore the Energy Resistance of 95+% of creatures. It was a hole in the game that the designers patched in 3.5.

 

[Benben]

Blarg, I guess I'm the only one who isn't pleased that they took away sonic substitution. It was nice for the PC's to have a weapon against outsiders. Now the outsiders have too many strengths.

Between you and KarinsDad it sounds like the only thing high level parties are facing are outsiders. Are they really that common?

 

[Sejs]

As has been stated, Slaadi have sonic resistance.

Formians do as well.

Additionally, anything that dealt sonic damage was vulnerable to being Countersonged by a competent bard, or negated by Silence.

 

[Shadowdweller]

That, and it ignores hardness too.

Actually, that brings up a good question (or at least one I have). IIRC, there was a passage in the 3.5 Game Rule FAQ which stated something along these lines. Was browsing through the newest version thereof the other day, and I failed to find this. FURTHERMORE, on p.32 it speaks of attacking animated objects...and says that sonic damage DOES NOT ignore hardness against them.

So: Anyone happen to know the status of this?

 

[Jdvn1]

Actually, that brings up a good question (or at least one I have). IIRC, there was a passage in the 3.5 Game Rule FAQ which stated something along these lines. Was browsing through the newest version thereof the other day, and I failed to find this. FURTHERMORE, on p.32 it speaks of attacking animated objects...and says that sonic damage DOES NOT ignore hardness against them.

So: Anyone happen to know the status of this?

The FAQ contradicts itself, as Hyp pointed out in post #10 of this thread.