Energy Substitution (Sonic)

[KarinsDad]

Between you and KarinsDad it sounds like the only thing high level parties are facing are outsiders. Are they really that common?

I doubt it.

Our group has been fighting Demons for the last 6 or 8 gaming sessions, but that will change this coming week (since we ended the Demon adventure).

I would suspect that Outsiders tend to show up as much or more from Summon Monster spells than as actual non-summoned opponents in most campaigns, but this is just a guess based on percentages of monsters that are Outsiders in most of the various Monster Manuals (which is actually a relatively small percentage unless you get into third party books).

 

[KarinsDad]

Actually, that brings up a good question (or at least one I have). IIRC, there was a passage in the 3.5 Game Rule FAQ which stated something along these lines. Was browsing through the newest version thereof the other day, and I failed to find this. FURTHERMORE, on p.32 it speaks of attacking animated objects...and says that sonic damage DOES NOT ignore hardness against them.

So: Anyone happen to know the status of this?

There is no official status tmk.

However, the PHB explicitly states that hardness is not ignored.

The counter claim is that because the PHB did not explicitly put hardness calculations into the acid and sonic specific descriptions (because they did not need to do so in order to indicate order of calculations) like they did with fire, lightning and cold, that the earlier general rule of hardness for objects is implicitly null and void.

But, this is just semantics. The PHB explicitly states that objects have hardness and never explicitly states that hardness can be ignored by weapon or energy attacks.

If the specific rule does not explicitly override the general rule, you cannot assume that it does because another different specific rule explicitly did NOT override the general rule.

The general rule from page 165 is:

"Whenever an object takes damage, subtract its hardness from the damage."

Nothing in the Energy Attacks section contradicts this general rule.

 

[Ero Gaki]

We actually do encounter alot of outsiders in our games. Once we reach higher levels, the outer planes tend to become our playing field. Outsiders are the enemy. But the main thing the PC's have to deal with is leveled outsiders. It is true that a mage character has weapons against outsiders, but there is nothing like facing demons with wizard levels. That plus the demons menions equals a really tough fight.

I enjoyed sonic substitution because it represented a hole in their defenses. A Vrock with a few levels of mage has a bunch of spell-like abilities, resistances, Spell Resistance, and its own wizard spells. That seems pretty messed up in my mind. Sonics gave the PC's a chance to even out the playing field. And now that has been nerfed.

 

[Shadowdweller]

Well, I must confess that I must have overlooked Hypersmurf's post earlier. However:

However, the PHB explicitly states that hardness is not ignored.

The PHB most definitely does not EXPLICITLY say this. What the PHB states is

"Acid and sonic attacks deal damage to most objects as they do to creatures; roll damage and apply it normally after a successful hit."

Yes, yes semantics. But this could VERY EASILY be interpreted to mean that acid and sonic damage ignore hardness. Furthermore, there USED to be an FAQ entry that directly stated that hardness was ignored. As Hypersmurf quoted above.

In any event, I can no longer find this passage in the current FAQ (version 4/29/2005). At least on p.41 as Hypersmurf lists it above. Which suggests that it's been reinterpreted so that hardness DOES apply.

 

[Hypersmurf]

In any event, I can no longer find this passage in the current FAQ (version 4/29/2005). At least on p.41 as Hypersmurf lists it above. Which suggests that it's been reinterpreted so that hardness DOES apply.

No, it's just on p42 in the latest version. The question about kytons and chains.

-Hyp.

 

[KarinsDad]

Well, I must confess that I must have overlooked Hypersmurf's post earlier. However:
The PHB most definitely does not EXPLICITLY say this. What the PHB states is

"Acid and sonic attacks deal damage to most objects as they do to creatures; roll damage and apply it normally after a successful hit."

Yes, yes semantics. But this could VERY EASILY be interpreted to mean that acid and sonic damage ignore hardness. Furthermore, there USED to be an FAQ entry that directly stated that hardness was ignored. As Hypersmurf quoted above.

And where in the sentence "Acid and sonic attacks deal damage to most objects as they do to creatures; roll damage and apply it normally after a successful hit." does it state that it overrides the general rule "Whenever an object takes damage, subtract its hardness from the damage."???

The PHB most definitely DOES explicitly state that objects subtract their hardness from damage. Any damage unless noted otherwise. For example, non-lethal damage is explicitly called out as an exception to this rule.

It is understandable how someone could misinterpret this at first (the Energy Section on Fire, Cold, and Electricity needed to call out the exact calculations in order to indicate halving/quartering order whereas the Sonic and Acid ones did not) and it is easy to understand how both DMs and even WotC personel could do so. But once the actual rule is called out, then it becomes a word game and ignoring RAW to continue with the "ignores hardness" line of reasoning.

With the "ignores hardness" interpretation, does this mean that when "applying damage normally to a creature" with Damage Reduction, you ignore it's Damage Reduction???

Obviously not.

So, why would you think that applying damage normally means to ignore an object's hardness when NOWHERE in the book does it state that?

When you can post a line from the PHB or DMG that states that Acid and Sonics ignore hardness, I will re-consider. I doubt you will find any such sentence.

Now, you can find some spells (Sympathetic Vibration) and powers (Energy Ray) that ignore hardness when used, but that is a property of that explicit spell or power, and not the same as a general rule.

And since the FAQ has two conflicting answers, the FAQ must by default be irrelevant to the discussion in this case.

In any event, I can no longer find this passage in the current FAQ (version 4/29/2005). At least on p.41 as Hypersmurf lists it above. Which suggests that it's been reinterpreted so that hardness DOES apply.

Incorrect.

FAQ version 4/29/2005

Page 32 under the Spells Section:

"Hardness applies to acid and sonic attacks."
"Hardness applies to force attacks."

Page 42:

"Acid, sonic, and force attacks ignore hardness."



Another note on this. Some people might also confuse Hardness for non-animated objects, animated objects and constructs with Damage Reduction for creatures.

Damage Reduction does not decrease any form of energy damage, including that from spells and spell-like abilities. Damage Reduction also does not decrease any form of bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage from spells or spell-like abilities.

Hardness does decrease all forms of damage except non-lethal damage, including energy damage and including that from spells and spell-like abilities.

 

[Shadowdweller]

No, it's just on p42 in the latest version. The question about kytons and chains.

So I see. Well that's a very logical place to find it. :\