Enervation

[Michael Silverbane]

Right. So if your effective level is too low to cast the spell, then since it's the effective level that's used for the spell, it's your effective level that determines whether or not you can cast a spell.

If I have a BAB of +6, and take a penalty of -1 to my effective BAB (not to my attack rolls, but to my effective BAB), then I would assume that, effectively, I wouldn't get two iterative attacks, and effectively, I wouldn't have access to the ITWF feat.

-Hyp.

But you don't use your effective level to determine whether or not you can cast the spell. You use your caster level for that.

Later
silver

 

[Hypersmurf]

But you don't use your effective level to determine whether or not you can cast the spell. You use your caster level for that.

You use your effective caster level, since it's the caster level of the spell that's important.

Even if my caster level is 10, I can't cast a CL 4 Fireball, because 4 is too low. My caster level doesn't matter; the caster level at which the spell is being cast does.

If my effective CL is 4, I can't cast a CL 5 Fireball (because it's too high for my effective CL), and I can't cast a CL 4 Fireball (because 4 is too low to cast Fireball).

-Hyp.

 

[Michael Silverbane]

I disagree. I don't believe that your effective caster level applies for the purpose of determining whether or not you can use the spell (or special ability) in the first place. This is similar to other modifiers to caster level (such as those gained from the Wild Mage prestige class or the Practiced Spellcaster feat) that do not increase or decrease the number of spells per day or the highest level spell that the spellcaster can cast, but modify the level-based effects of the spells, once cast.

Here's the way I see it playing out. I am a 5th level wizard. I cast a fireball (choosing to use my full caster level, since I cannot choose a caster level lower than the minimum to cast the spell). Then I apply any negative levels (or other caster level modifying benefits or penalties).


Later
silver

 

[Piratecat]

Way to completely ignore my point.

Can we please ratchet down the intensity of the conversation? It's okay if people don't agree, and both sides have been really clear with their arguments. I'd hate for a fight to inadvertently get picked.

 

[Hypersmurf]

This is similar to other modifiers to caster level (such as those gained from the Wild Mage prestige class or the Practiced Spellcaster feat) that do not increase or decrease the number of spells per day or the highest level spell that the spellcaster can cast, but modify the level-based effects of the spells, once cast.

I would say that the Wild Mage ability does not increase or decrease the number of spells per day or spells known - it is not a change to your class level - but it could render your caster level too low to cast certain spells.

-Hyp.

 

[Michael Silverbane]

I would say that the Wild Mage ability does not increase or decrease the number of spells per day or spells known - it is not a change to your class level - but it could render your caster level too low to cast certain spells.

-Hyp.

I don't think it does, and via the same reasoning as in my previous post.

Part of that belief comes from the verbiage in various prestige classes, where they are granted additional spells per day separately from being granted an effective caster level... As demonstrated in the Arcane Trickster prestige class...

Spells per Day: When a new arcane trickster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained, except for an increased effective level of spellcasting. If a character had more than one spellcasting class before becoming an arcane trickster, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day.

Part of it comes from the magic overview section, where it says...

A wizard’s level limits the number of spells she can prepare and cast. Her high Intelligence score might allow her to prepare a few extra spells. She can prepare the same spell more than once, but each preparation counts as one spell toward her daily limit. To prepare a spell the wizard must have an Intelligence score of at least 10 + the spell’s level.

A wizard's level (not a wizard's level and other factors) limits the number of spells she can prepare and cast. A 5th level wizard can cast 3rd level spells, regardless of effects that alter her caster level.

That said, I would probably accept a ruling by a DM in a game in which I was a player that having an effective caster level lower than the minimum required to cast a spell would preclude casting... but that DM would recieve a vicious and horrible dirty look when he made that ruling.

Later
silver

 

[Hypersmurf]

Part of that belief comes from the verbiage in various prestige classes, where they are granted additional spells per day separately from being granted an effective caster level...

I'm not sure I agree that those are separate - when he gains his extra spells per day, he gains nothing else except the increased caster level.

The +1 spellcasting level feature grants him spells per day and caster level as if he'd gained a level in, say, Wizard.

A 5th level wizard can cast 3rd level spells, regardless of effects that alter her caster level.

Whereas I'd say a 5th level wizard can cast 3rd level spells, regardless of effects that alter her caster level... subject to the rule that the minimum caster level for a Wizard casting a 3rd level spell is 5.

That said, I would probably accept a ruling by a DM in a game in which I was a player that having an effective caster level lower than the minimum required to cast a spell would preclude casting...

Oh, absolutely - just as I'd accept, in Caliban's game or in yours, that it would not.

-Hyp.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

the energy drained condition does not prevent spellcasting at all. a 20th level sorcerer hit with 10 levels of energy drain can still cast any 9th levels he has in his selection of spells known, if he has any slots left to stuff them into. His caster level would still be 20, with a -10 penalty.

Much like Power Attack at first level.
"I Power Attack for 1"
"..err, you can't."
"huh?"
"then you'd be at 0, and not qualify for Power Attack"
"wtf?"
"I didn't write the rules, I just use the words however I want to"

 

[Hypersmurf]

the energy drained condition does not prevent spellcasting at all. a 20th level sorcerer hit with 10 levels of energy drain can still cast any 9th levels he has in his selection of spells known, if he has any slots left to stuff them into. His caster level would still be 20, with a -10 penalty.

Much like Power Attack at first level.
"I Power Attack for 1"
"..err, you can't."
"huh?"
"then you'd be at 0, and not qualify for Power Attack"
"wtf?"
"I didn't write the rules, I just use the words however I want to"

Power Attack provides a penalty to attack rolls, not a penalty to BAB.

Energy Drain reduces the caster level of your spells.

-Hyp.

 

[lukelightning]

Power Attack provides a penalty to attack rolls, not a penalty to BAB.

Right, but the most you can power attack is equal to your BAB.

Let's say you are a 5th level fighter with power attack: you can regularly power attack for 5 at the most. Then oh noes! Enervation! You get 4 negative levels. You have a -4 to hit... but you can still power attack for 5. If enervation reduced your BAB you could only power attack for 1.