Enervation

[sirwmholder]

I believe Hypersmurf is correct... keep in mind there are ways to boost your "effective caster level" beyond your actual level. If your effective level is below the minimum to cast then you can not cast.

I see this as being similar to Feats you lose the prerequisite for... a Fighter who just does qualify for Combat Expertise gets hit with Feeblemind... no more Combat Expertise for him. He still has the feat he can just no longer activate it... same with those spell slots... they are locked in the Caster's mind and he is unable to use them at present.

William Holder

 

[Veril]

I find this interesting. I can see both sides of the arguement here. I'd like to see what people think about the following.

A 12th level druid can turn into a plant using wildshape, an 11th level druid cannot. A enervation sas "Each negative level gives a creature a -1 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, ability checks, and effective level (for determining the power, duration, DC, and other details of spells or special abilities). "

Does the -1 to effective level prevent a druid from changing into a plant?
Does the -1 then mean I have to refigure the druids animal companion (which is an extraordinary ability - i.e. a special ability). So it loses 2HD, 2AC, 1str/dex etc.

Except for spells and feats almost everything that every character has is a special ability (extraordinary, spell like or supernatural).

 

[Caliban]

Can we please ratchet down the intensity of the conversation? It's okay if people don't agree, and both sides have been really clear with their arguments. I'd hate for a fight to inadvertently get picked.

I apologize to Moritheil for overreacting when he implied that my entire point of view "distasteful".

 

[Darklone]

...

Rogues sneak attack... Improved Evasion...

Ack.

 

[Destil]

I find this interesting. I can see both sides of the arguement here. I'd like to see what people think about the following.

A 12th level druid can turn into a plant using wildshape, an 11th level druid cannot. A enervation sas "Each negative level gives a creature a -1 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, ability checks, and effective level (for determining the power, duration, DC, and other details of spells or special abilities). "

Does the -1 to effective level prevent a druid from changing into a plant?
Does the -1 then mean I have to refigure the druids animal companion (which is an extraordinary ability - i.e. a special ability). So it loses 2HD, 2AC, 1str/dex etc.

Except for spells and feats almost everything that every character has is a special ability (extraordinary, spell like or supernatural).

No, because it specifically does not say that the effective level is reduced for determining access to spells or special abilities. Only duration, power and DC. The other details would include range, number of targets et cetera. So the druid's wild shape would last for 1 hour less, but it wouldn't stop them from being a tree.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Right, but the most you can power attack is equal to your BAB.

Let's say you are a 5th level fighter with power attack: you can regularly power attack for 5 at the most. Then oh noes! Enervation! You get 4 negative levels. You have a -4 to hit... but you can still power attack for 5. If enervation reduced your BAB you could only power attack for 1.

But nobody is saying that it reduces your BAB, so your argument is...mysterious

 

[lukelightning]

But nobody is saying that it reduces your BAB, so your argument is...mysterious

Using BAB as an analogy for caster level. Just as your BAB doesn't go down from negative levels, I don't think your caster level does. Your effective casting level goes down, but not your caster level itself.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Using BAB as an analogy for caster level. Just as your BAB doesn't go down from negative levels, I don't think your caster level does. Your effective casting level goes down, but not your caster level itself.

It is not a valid analogy though. Negative levels don't decrease your BAB or your effective BAB or anything related to your BAB. They just give you a -1 penalty. That analogy would be like trying to explain that Con damage won't kill you because a penalty to Con-based checks won't kill you.

 

[Mistwell]

But nobody is saying that it reduces your BAB, so your argument is...mysterious

And so, out of the shadows comes an arguement cloaked in a dark blue satin hood. It whisper in your mind something about base attack bonuses, before slipping into the gloom and disappearing...

 

[Hypersmurf]

Using BAB as an analogy for caster level. Just as your BAB doesn't go down from negative levels, I don't think your caster level does. Your effective casting level goes down, but not your caster level itself.

But it's your effective caster level that determines the caster level of your spells...

-Hyp.