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Speaking as a combat reflexive trip-monkey...
Its a very, very uselful trick... however, I've found that it pratically demands a high level of teamwork. My char. is a lightly armoured, acrobatic, sometimes giant reach weapon tripper. He can wreck havoc on the battlefield, however, he has such a poor AC [especially when both Enlarged and Raging], he can't last more than a round or two against comparable foes without help.
Its a very, very uselful trick... however, I've found that it pratically demands a high level of teamwork. My char. is a lightly armoured, acrobatic, sometimes giant reach weapon tripper. He can wreck havoc on the battlefield, however, he has such a poor AC [especially when both Enlarged and Raging], he can't last more than a round or two against comparable foes without help.
two
First Post
Enlarge Power
Don't forget the additional attacks you get when enlarged.
Even without Combat Reflexes, you will probably get a "free" movement AOO if your medium longsword turns into a large longsword (with 10' reach).
At low levels, this is particularly effective, since most low levels opponents don't have reach and must move through your 10' reach to hit at you (giving you the free attack).
This can't really be underestimated; reach at low levels is probably worth 2-3 "free" attacks per combat, and with the increased damage potential, each AOO might cause a Cleave (if you have Cleave), resulting in... well whatever.
You get the point. Getting reach = more attacks most of the time = more dished damage.
Pretty much every fighter type should get Combat Reflexes, as far as I can tell. Even a 12 dex is OK; not being flatfooted by itself is enough of an advantage (for making AOO's).
Don't forget the additional attacks you get when enlarged.
Even without Combat Reflexes, you will probably get a "free" movement AOO if your medium longsword turns into a large longsword (with 10' reach).
At low levels, this is particularly effective, since most low levels opponents don't have reach and must move through your 10' reach to hit at you (giving you the free attack).
This can't really be underestimated; reach at low levels is probably worth 2-3 "free" attacks per combat, and with the increased damage potential, each AOO might cause a Cleave (if you have Cleave), resulting in... well whatever.
You get the point. Getting reach = more attacks most of the time = more dished damage.
Pretty much every fighter type should get Combat Reflexes, as far as I can tell. Even a 12 dex is OK; not being flatfooted by itself is enough of an advantage (for making AOO's).
Cheers
Thanks for the link to the comprehensive (and how!) discussion over at wizards. I think the "take the *8 weight multiplication to its logical conclusion and then some" answer might work rather tha just banning/modding the spell.
Banning/modding the spell is not a good option, as the reason i'm using D20 in the first place was to have a balanced system
Thanks a lot,
Brian
Thanks for the link to the comprehensive (and how!) discussion over at wizards. I think the "take the *8 weight multiplication to its logical conclusion and then some" answer might work rather tha just banning/modding the spell.
Banning/modding the spell is not a good option, as the reason i'm using D20 in the first place was to have a balanced system
Thanks a lot,
Brian
I don't understand why people think reach is so overwhelming.
If that were the case, then every Fighter would take a Spike Chain as a weapon.
For the most part, reach gives you the ability to get the first attack per combat per opponent.
Say you have two fighters using the same weapon and with the same 40% chance to hit.
You enlarge one of the Fighters. What does he gain or lose?
Gain:
+2 damage per successful hit (+1 Str, +1 weapon upgrade)
Reach
Lose:
-2 AC (-1 size, -1 Dex)
-1 Reflex saves
Fighting each other, the enlarged one (we'll call him F1 and the non-enlarged one F2) effectively gains the equivalent of initiative and nothing more (for the most part) due to the reach.
If F2 runs up to F1, F1 gets an Attack of Opportunity, then F2 gets a standard action attack, then F1 gets a Full Attack, then F2 gets a Full Attack, etc. If F1 runs up to F2, F1 gets a standard action attack, then F2 gets a Full Attack, then F1 gets a Full Attack, etc.
So basically, all the reach does is give F1 the first attack (and the ability to retreat without taking an AoO).
Damage-wise (assuming that both fighters are doing single attacks) for 10 straight attacks, F1 does 10 * 40% * (normal damage +2). F2 does 10 * 50% (F1 has -2 AC) * normal damage.
F1 does an average of 4 * normal + 8 points.
F2 does an average of 5 * normal.
If the fighters average (for this example) less than 8 points of damage per successful hit (due to damage dice + strength + magic), F1 does more average damage in the combat than F2. If the fighters average more than 8 points of damage per successful hit, F2 does more average damage in the combat than F1.
Now, take the case where they both have a 10% chance to hit over a 10 straight attacks:
F1 does an average of 1 * normal + 2 points.
F2 does an average of 2 * normal.
Average successful damage for nearly all Fighters will always be more than 2 points of damage, typically much more. The higher the AC of the Fighters, the more Enlarge Person hurts F1 over helping him.
Now, this assumes that the initiative advantage for F1 is not that overwhelming. It could be. However, the longer the fight goes, the more average damage F2 does over F1. Plus, F1 also has the reflex save penalty.
Being enlarged is more of a penalty (in many cases) than a bonus. The advantages of the spell are often overcome by the disadvantages. Against a whole bunch of low AC and low hit points opponents, it might be more beneficial than harmful. But, for the vast majority of scenarios, it is more harmful than beneficial.
Now granted, using Enlarge Person to grapple or trip can be potent. No doubt about it. But, I do not see that as so overwhelmingly potent as to make Enlarge Person broke. It just makes it realistic.
I personally think that the Enlarge Person is extremely wimpy (except in the grapple / trip scenarios) and I boosted it in my house rules to be +4 Str (instead of +2), +2 Con, and +10 to move (all of the spells in my game that increase size increase move) in addition to the standard bonuses and penalties that the spell provides.
Since the original poster did not want to modify the spell, my suggestion is to just use it as is without modifications because it really doesn't help combat situations anywhere near as much as other first level spells: like putting Mage Armor on a Monk, casting Color Spray, casting Sleep, casting Magic Missile. All of these spells are much more potent than Enlarge Person in the vast majority of combat situations.
If that were the case, then every Fighter would take a Spike Chain as a weapon.
For the most part, reach gives you the ability to get the first attack per combat per opponent.
Say you have two fighters using the same weapon and with the same 40% chance to hit.
You enlarge one of the Fighters. What does he gain or lose?
Gain:
+2 damage per successful hit (+1 Str, +1 weapon upgrade)
Reach
Lose:
-2 AC (-1 size, -1 Dex)
-1 Reflex saves
Fighting each other, the enlarged one (we'll call him F1 and the non-enlarged one F2) effectively gains the equivalent of initiative and nothing more (for the most part) due to the reach.
If F2 runs up to F1, F1 gets an Attack of Opportunity, then F2 gets a standard action attack, then F1 gets a Full Attack, then F2 gets a Full Attack, etc. If F1 runs up to F2, F1 gets a standard action attack, then F2 gets a Full Attack, then F1 gets a Full Attack, etc.
So basically, all the reach does is give F1 the first attack (and the ability to retreat without taking an AoO).
Damage-wise (assuming that both fighters are doing single attacks) for 10 straight attacks, F1 does 10 * 40% * (normal damage +2). F2 does 10 * 50% (F1 has -2 AC) * normal damage.
F1 does an average of 4 * normal + 8 points.
F2 does an average of 5 * normal.
If the fighters average (for this example) less than 8 points of damage per successful hit (due to damage dice + strength + magic), F1 does more average damage in the combat than F2. If the fighters average more than 8 points of damage per successful hit, F2 does more average damage in the combat than F1.
Now, take the case where they both have a 10% chance to hit over a 10 straight attacks:
F1 does an average of 1 * normal + 2 points.
F2 does an average of 2 * normal.
Average successful damage for nearly all Fighters will always be more than 2 points of damage, typically much more. The higher the AC of the Fighters, the more Enlarge Person hurts F1 over helping him.
Now, this assumes that the initiative advantage for F1 is not that overwhelming. It could be. However, the longer the fight goes, the more average damage F2 does over F1. Plus, F1 also has the reflex save penalty.
Being enlarged is more of a penalty (in many cases) than a bonus. The advantages of the spell are often overcome by the disadvantages. Against a whole bunch of low AC and low hit points opponents, it might be more beneficial than harmful. But, for the vast majority of scenarios, it is more harmful than beneficial.
Now granted, using Enlarge Person to grapple or trip can be potent. No doubt about it. But, I do not see that as so overwhelmingly potent as to make Enlarge Person broke. It just makes it realistic.
I personally think that the Enlarge Person is extremely wimpy (except in the grapple / trip scenarios) and I boosted it in my house rules to be +4 Str (instead of +2), +2 Con, and +10 to move (all of the spells in my game that increase size increase move) in addition to the standard bonuses and penalties that the spell provides.
Since the original poster did not want to modify the spell, my suggestion is to just use it as is without modifications because it really doesn't help combat situations anywhere near as much as other first level spells: like putting Mage Armor on a Monk, casting Color Spray, casting Sleep, casting Magic Missile. All of these spells are much more potent than Enlarge Person in the vast majority of combat situations.
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
KarinsDad said:
Let's say the Enlarged fighter, who seeks to make the most of his Reach, has the Spring Attack feat.
It's no longer Full Attack - Full Attack - Full Attack.
F2 runs up, provokes an AoO, and hits once.
F1 steps back five feet, hits once, and carries on back another five feet with Spring Attack.
Score: F1, 2 attacks, F2, 1 attack.
F2 needs to close ten feet to attack, so he provokes an AoO, and can only attack once.
F1 steps back five feet, hits once, and carries on back another five feet with Spring Attack.
Score: F1, 4 attacks, F2, 2 attacks.
The Reach, plus Spring Attack, means that F1 gets twice as many hits in as F2.
F2 will obviously have some other feats that will increase his average damage output... but is it enough to make up for half the number of attacks?
If it is, then F1 can grapple
Only if his Dex bonus doesn't exceed the Max Dex bonus of his armor.
If his Dex is better than his armor can handle, his AC only drops by 1 when he Enlarges.
-Hyp.
Plane Sailing
Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
KarinsDad - I agree with your argument, but you might want to rework it to take into account the increased damage from a larger weapon size - if F1 and F2 are both using greatswords, F1 is doing 3d6 to F2's 2d6 (ave +3.5 before Str). Even if they are both just using longswords F1 is doing 2d6 compared to 1d8 (+2.5 before Str).
Cheers.
BTW, I've been running "enlarge as size increase by one level" as a house rule since the very early days of 3e, and it has never proven to be a problem because in all except powerplay trip based situations it merely gave perhaps one extra attack as you said. After combat was joined the guy with reach never got to step more than 5ft with impunity.
Even in the worst case scenario though - what effect does the spell have? It dramatically improves the chances of the party winning through on ONE encounter. Hey, just like colour spray or sleep...
I think Improved Trip has been unjustly increased in 3.5e, and that is where the problem primarily lies. Enlarge is just a decent spell which gives a decent benefit for a short while.
Cheers
Cheers.
BTW, I've been running "enlarge as size increase by one level" as a house rule since the very early days of 3e, and it has never proven to be a problem because in all except powerplay trip based situations it merely gave perhaps one extra attack as you said. After combat was joined the guy with reach never got to step more than 5ft with impunity.
Even in the worst case scenario though - what effect does the spell have? It dramatically improves the chances of the party winning through on ONE encounter. Hey, just like colour spray or sleep...
I think Improved Trip has been unjustly increased in 3.5e, and that is where the problem primarily lies. Enlarge is just a decent spell which gives a decent benefit for a short while.
Cheers
Hypersmurf said:
Good points Hyp. You can take advantage of Enlarge in these ways (of course, most Fighters are designed so that their Dex does not exceed the Max Dex bonus of the armor, so that seems minor).
But, a few things to consider:
1) Why should F2 even bother to get into melee range? He can use a range weapon and attempt to stay away. Or, F2 could use a reach weapon which almost forces F1 to use a reach weapon as well.
2) In a mass combat, everyone should be concentrating on the spell casters and each enlarged opponent. Does F1 really want to be a target? Maybe, maybe not.
3) The reach / spring attack combo can be overcome with the Tumble skill. Not all opponents wear heavy armor.
4) As a larger creature, the Enlarged fighter gets less cover bonus from his allies.
5) As a larger creature, the Enlarged fighter can have more opponents surround him (if he is originally medium sized or larger). If there are enough opponents, they can even prevent Spring Attack.
6) If the Enlarged fighter tries to grapple, he has an advantage over the foe he is grappling. But, he is at a disadvantage to other opponents.
7) Enlarge Person increases the weight of all weapons, armor, and equipment by a factor of * 8 which will almost definitely slow down the enlarged character.
There is no doubt about it. Enlarge does have benefits which can be taken advantage of. But, I do not consider them to be overwhelming to the level of being broken.
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
KarinsDad said:
Depends on your interpretation of "similarly enlarged".
A Medium creature becomes Large.
His weapons and armor, "similarly enlarged", become Large... which means their weight doubles.
To read "similarly enlarged" to refer to the weight rather than the size category means that a longsword that is made Large via Enlarge Person weighs four times as much as an otherwise identical Large longsword... which makes no sense.
-Hyp.
Reach of 10' isn't a big deal. Reach of 20' is much more significant.
With 5' reach you affect 8 squares around you.
With 10' reach you affect 24 squares around you.
With 20' reach you affect 80 squares around you.
20' reach gives you a much greater ability to affect the battlefield in your area, especially if you have combat reflexes and a decent Dex.
With 5' reach you affect 8 squares around you.
With 10' reach you affect 24 squares around you.
With 20' reach you affect 80 squares around you.
20' reach gives you a much greater ability to affect the battlefield in your area, especially if you have combat reflexes and a decent Dex.
