Enlarge

[Darklone]

Hmm. I think my problem in this case with the combat system is best summarized with "Why do you need that silly 5ft step?"

 

[two]

I've always interpreted "readied actions"

As happening right before the action that triggered them, you know, like the rules indicate. This means the triggering action DOES happen. Because, if it didn't, the readied action would not trigger, right?

If JOE has a readied action to step back 5' and attack when "bad guy X" attacks ("swings his sword at JOE," then):

Bad Guy X: Starts to swing sword at JOE.
JOE: (who has been waiting all round for this guy to swing his sword) Steps back 5' and attacks.
Bad Guy X: Finishes swinging sword in JOE's direction. JOE is not there, and that's too bad. For Bad Guy X.

If you let Bad Guy X "see" and "respond" to a readied action,well, the readied action is... not really a readied action. It's something that happens that Bad Guy X can respond to on the fly. What's the advantage for JOE in this case?

Remember, JOE spend his initiative setting this up. He's not getting anything for "free." If you allow Bad Guy X to change his action, you basically are making JOE's "readied action" worthless.

In my example, Bad Guy X has already done some movement, (disallowing a 5' step), and started/completed an attack. That's it. He's done. He doesn't get a 5' step adjustment to move inside JOE's 10' reach and isn't allowed to keeping moving instead of attacking.

Note that JOE is taking a risk here. If Bad Guy X had NOT attacked, simply moved up to him, the readied action would not have been triggered and JOE would not have gotten his attack. Them's the breaks. It's a risk. It's not a perfect plan.

I don't see how you can play "readied actions" in any other way that would not make "readied actions," well, pointless. And as, HYP indicated, no spells would EVER be interrupted (except for continuous damage, I suppose).

 

[KarinsDad]

Let's start with some obvious "duh" moments.

Yes, let's do that.

If F1 gets initiative, he readies "a standard attack after moving 5' back".
F2 goes. Runs at/charges/attacks F1. F1 gets the AOO as F2 moves through controlled square at 10'. Then F2 "attacks" F1 but F1's readied action goes off just before. F1 steps back 5' and attacks. F2's attack "goes off" but since F1 is 10' away, he can't be hit. F1's initiative now just before F2.

SO FAR: F1 has had 2 attacks, and F2 is now 10' away.

F1 did a ready action.

What if F2 decides to pull out his bow and shoot F1?

SO FAR: F2 has had 1 attack, and F1 has had ZERO attacks.

DUH

You have to take standard actions and character intelligence into account when you do a normal analysis.

If you throw Readied actions into the mix, then the character readying MIGHT lose his action completely. Talk about full of holes.

DUH

 

[two]

Yes, let's do that.

F1 did a ready action.

What if F2 decides to pull out his bow and shoot F1?

SO FAR: F2 has had 1 attack, and F1 has had ZERO attacks.

DUH

You have to take standard actions and character intelligence into account when you do a normal analysis.

If you throw Readied actions into the mix, then the character readying MIGHT lose his action completely. Talk about full of holes.

DUH

Sorry if I sounded snarky before KarinsDad, it was really late. My bad.

Agreed, if F2 "figures out" that F1 won initiative, and has a "readied action" all set up, and pulls out his bow, then yes F2 gets an advantage in the ranged battle-fest. [Are there rules that cover F2 "figuring out" that F1 has a "readied action?"] As I noted, this might happen, and F1 will be doing 2d6 damage with his large longbow vs. F2's 1d8. But F2 goes first, etc. etc. etc. F1 at -2 to hit for size/dex hit, etc. etc. etc

But that does not really relate to "enlarge" in melee. Are you arguing that anytime you fight something that's "enlarged" you better not melee (because reach is, well, pretty scary, particularly when combined with readied actions?).

Your initial point was, I think, that Enlarge is NOT that powerful. Now it seems to be powerful enough to change the entire battle (ranged, and ranged only).

Out of a gladitorial battle, it's much more cut and dry. Most "monsters" don't have great ranged attacks, so melee is required. Obvious exceptions exist.

 

[KarinsDad]

Sorry if I sounded snarky before KarinsDad, it was really late. My bad.

No problem.

If F1 wins initiate and F2 does not attack, it's a stand-off until they decide to trade ranged attacks, during which F1's large longbow deals 2d6 damage. Granted, it's at -2 to hit, but hey -- it does 2.5 more damage on average than his opponents 1d8 longbow. Think of it as a ranged power attack. Proceed. This one might actually be close. The melee combat probably won't be.

Ok, so they both have bows out and decide to trade shots.

In my campaign (and probably most campaigns), Fighters have big strengths and quickly buy/use composite bows that allow max Strength bonus and/or buy/use magic arrows that add to damage. So, assuming four cases of attempting full round bow attacks each round and assuming that BAB starts overcoming AC by 10% every 5 levels (and ignoring criticals for now). The damage listed below is a cumulative total average (i.e. the amount done after that many rounds).

1) Both Fighters have a Strength of 16 (i.e. do +3 damage with the bow due to comp bow or magic arrows) and have not yet gotten to BAB 6+ (40% chance to hit before Enlarged).
2) Both Fighters have a Strength of 16 and have gotten to BAB 6+ (50% chance to hit before Enlarged).
3) Both Fighters have a Strength of 16 and have gotten to BAB 11+ (60% chance to hit before Enlarged).
4) Both Fighters have a Strength of 16 and have gotten to BAB 16+ (70% chance to hit before Enlarged).

Round 1 Case 1:
F1 averages 3 hits
F2 averages 3.75 hits

Round 2 Case 1:
F1 averages 6 hits
F2 averages 7.5 hits

Round 3 Case 1:
F1 averages 9 hits
F2 averages 11.25 hits

Round 4 Case 1:
F1 averages 12 hits
F2 averages 15 hits

Since F2 averages more average damage per round, F1 never catches up.

Round 1 Case 2:
F1 averages 5.5 hits
F2 averages 7.125 hits

Round 2 Case 2:
F1 averages 11 hits
F2 averages 14.5 hits

Round 3 Case 2:
F1 averages 16.5 hits
F2 averages 21.375 hits

Round 4 Case 2:
F1 averages 22 hits
F2 averages 28.5 hits

Round 1 Case 3 (note: F1s third attack only has a 5% chance to hit, natural 20):
F1 averages 8 hits
F2 averages 12.375 hits

Round 2 Case 3:
F1 averages 16 hits
F2 averages 24.75 hits

Round 3 Case 3:
F1 averages 24 hits
F2 averages 37.125 hits

Round 4 Case 3:
F1 averages 32 hits
F2 averages 49.5 hits

Round 1 Case 4 (note: F1s fourth attack only has a 5% chance to hit, natural 20)
F1 averages 11 hits
F2 averages 12.75 hits

Round 2 Case 4:
F1 averages 22 hits
F2 averages 25.5 hits

Round 3 Case 4:
F1 averages 33 hits
F2 averages 38.25 hits

Round 4 Case 4:
F1 averages 44 hits
F2 averages 51 hits

F1 might average 2.5 more points of damage per successful hit, but F2 hits 20% of the time when F1 does not. In every case above here, F2 averaged more damage per round than F1. That's huge and it becomes even more huge with full round attacks.

And criticals do not change the picture too much since F1 does slightly more damage per critical, but F2 hits on the criticals a lot more often (just like the normal damage).

Yes in melee, the enlarged character has an advantage. But, in ranged combat, he is at a disadvantage.

Let's not assume that his opponents are stupid enough to just walk into that melee advantage. Typically, he will have to come to his opponents and not the other way around in which case, they just take a 5 foot step in and full round attack him with his AC lowered by 2.

F1 cannot really control the combat. His opponents should pepper him with arrows and/or wait for him to commit to melee. Any opponent that F1 attempts to melee with will typically only lose at most that first attack. After that, it is mostly a slugfest with F1 doing more average damage when he hits and his opponents hitting more often.

Sure, monsters may not have as many ranged attacks, but many monsters are just as large or larger than F1, or they have other combat advantages (like Rend).

All in all, the reach/AC penalty is mostly a wash and not the uber advantage people think it is without doing the math.

[Are there rules that cover F2 "figuring out" that F1 has a "readied action?"]

Well, it's kind of hard to hide the fact that F1s initiative comes up in the game and he doesn't do anything, so the player of F2 decides "oh well, he is out of charge range, so I pull out my bow and shoot".

Your initial point was, I think, that Enlarge is NOT that powerful. Now it seems to be powerful enough to change the entire battle (ranged, and ranged only).

Enlarge is a tactic. Just like any other tactic, you react to it appropriately. That does not mean that the tactic is so uber that you cannot react adequately to it.

 

[Staffan]

Are there rules that cover F2 "figuring out" that F1 has a "readied action?"

Not rules-wise, but in most cases it should be obvious that F1 has some sort of readied action. You see him standing there with his weapon ready, apparently looking for something. If it's a readied strike vs. charge with a spear, it should be even more obvious since he's pointing the spear in a direction and making sure it's well-supported.

 

[Darklone]

Hmm. Another question. F1 readies an attack and a 5ft step back as soon as F2 attacks him.

Now F2 tumbles around F1 and attacks... do you ask where F1 wanted to step? If yes, he might still be in reach, right?

 

[two]

Hmm. Another question. F1 readies an attack and a 5ft step back as soon as F2 attacks him.

Now F2 tumbles around F1 and attacks... do you ask where F1 wanted to step? If yes, he might still be in reach, right?

Maybe. It depends on how detailed your GM makes your "readied action." If you are forced to state exactly where your 5' step will be, then yes. If not, no.

Typically, I don't think "readied actions" are THAT specific (i.e. I will move to that square right THERE and then attack to damage with my longspear).

Usually there is some wiggle room. For example, you specify an "attack" with the readied action. Is that a trip attack? or a sunder? Or attack to damage? Generally, you don't have to specify (at least in games I've seen). You just take an attack action, whatever it is you choose to do (like an AOO).

Offhand, requiring the "readier" to specify the exact square to move into might fall into this "too much detail" category. But maybe not. There is a LOT of leeway regarding "readied actions."

 

[KarinsDad]

Hmm. Another question. F1 readies an attack and a 5ft step back as soon as F2 attacks him.

Now F2 tumbles around F1 and attacks... do you ask where F1 wanted to step? If yes, he might still be in reach, right?

He can declare that he moves away from the attacker (regardless of the direction from which the attacker attacks) with some possible caveats like he cannot move 5 feet into a wall and would not want to move 5 feet over a cliff edge.

I do not think it is required that you declare your exact movement for a readied action. You can declare generic movement ("I move towards him when he enters the corridor" or "I move away from him").

Not only that, but F1 would lose the space he wanted to retreat into to the tumbling F2 if F1 either declares the exact space he is moving to or if he just declared that he would "move back". F2 could not attack until he gets to the space behind F1. F1 could not take the 5 foot step back into the same space until F2 gets there. Hence, F2 gets the space because he is there first.

This is one of the weirdnesses of Readying an action, just like F2 cannot continue his movement and still get an attack once F1 retreats the 5 foot step.