Enlightened Grognard: Reducing the Skill List

[Celebrim]

I like this idea. I thought of doing something similar with the first three, but the others sound interesting to. I wish 3e had went this route from the beginning.

I don't. I came back to D20 from GURPS after getting tired of systems trying to express everything in terms of skills.

There is no perfect set of rules. There is only a ruleset that is good for what you are trying to achieve. Having combat as a skill achieves one thing and is suited for certain styles. Siloing it off as a restricted ability achieves another and is suited for other styles. Before I'd move combat attributes into skills, I'd have to first decide to play a game where the ability to swing a sword was no more important (and maybe even less important) than any other skill.

Sammael's design has a certain elegance and he does a good job picking his skill set both in breadth, size, and balance, but I'm not convinced I need it for any game I envision. Though, based on the skill he shows in crafting the skill set, I'd be interested in sitting in on the game he wants to run.

 

[amnuxoll]

This is a cool approach. Thanks for posting it!

I voted, but I also figured I'd give you a rundown of how I've merged the skills (it took me a while, but I am now pretty satisfied with the list, as are the players in my 2 playtest campaigns):

 

[Sammael]

Though, based on the skill he shows in crafting the skill set, I'd be interested in sitting in on the game he wants to run.

Thank you for the compliment! If you're ever in Belgrade, Serbia, drop me a message and I'm sure a game can be arranged.

 

[Kerrick]

Latecomer to the thread, but I thought I'd add my two cents. I voted for Acrobatics, Craft/Forgery, Decipher Script, Perception, and Stealth (you did intend to fold MS into that, right?).

When I did Project Phoenix, it started out as a simple overhaul of the skill system, then got out of hand. I had already revised several skills in past years (Craft, Spot, and a couple others); when I redid them for the new system, I went over them again.

Long story short, here's what I've got now (or you can look here for more details).

Acrobatics (same as yours)
Appraise (stole some things from PF)
Bluff (uses a unified social skill system)
Climb
Concentration
Craft (overhauled)
Decipher Script (uses a unified system with Speak Language)
Disguise
Diplomacy (uses a unified social skill system)
Disable Device (includes Open Lock)
Gather Information (overhauled)
Handle Animal
Intimidate (uses a unified social skill system)
Jump
Knowledge (overhauled)
Perception (Listen/Spot)
Perform
Profession
Ride
Search
Sense Motive
Sleight of Hand
Speak Language (uses a unified system with Deciper Script)
Spellcraft
Stealth (Hide/MS)
Swim
UMD

While it's fairly common to combine the athletic skills (Climb, Jump, Swim), I just couldn't justify it - they're different enough that each has its place in a skillset. Same with Ride and Handle Animal, though having ranks in HA would certainly add a bonus to Ride (I don't think it does in 3.5; I can't be bothered to look).

Oh yeah: if you're going to condense the skill list, you'll have to take a good look at how many skill points everyone gets - rogues especially. If you get rid of several of their skills but keep 8+Int, they'll be godlike. I divided the number of class skills by 3 (minimum 4 + Int) to get a relatively balanced number of skill points.

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

Anyways, this is not the right thread to discuss the merits of my system... since I provided my entire revised skill list, I merely wanted to explain the purpose of certain skills. I'd be more than happy to elaborate on my system in a separate thread (which already exists somewhere in the depths of this forum).

@Sammael: Could you link to the thread you're referring to in this quote, or throw out a couple keywords (besides 'sammael' and 'skills' ) to google on? I'm interested in reading a bit more about your skill system, but can't find a thread with your name on it that's obviously the one you're referring too. Thanks.

 

[Sammael]

I'll create a new thread and it will include links to previous ones.

 

[Matrixryu]

Personally, I'm just using the pathfinder still system at the moment. It actually has a lot of the ideas that you've already listed here and now all the skills actually feel useful.

The only thing that bothers me about it is that spellcraft and concentration were combined together. That kinda messes up any prestige classes that used concentration for special purposes.

Those Brawl, Marksmanship, and Melee ideas are interesting btw. Just because a person is good at melee doesn't mean he's good at Marksmanship (and so on). It makes characters a lot more specialized.

 

[CAFargo]

One way to do it is to simply get rid of skills altogether, and replace them with ability checks. Sure, the players would still get skill points, but they would be put into only six skills:
Strength-->heavy lifting, anything that requires strength...
Constitution-->prolonged lifting, anything that takes a while to do...
Dexterity-->anything that requires fine-motor skills or timed movements...
Intelligence-->anything that requires you to recall information or figure out a puzzle (possible open lock or disable device)...
Wisdom-->anything that requires you to quickly make a decision (not much) or anything that doesn't fit into another category (e.g. use magic device)
Charisma-->social skills...duh

Classes with 2+int skill points/level now only get their int, 4+int becomes 1+int, 6+int becomes 2+int, and 8+int becomes 3+int.

Classes would have to put ranks into ability "skill-bonuses", which would then be used ONLY for skill checks (leaving everything else nice and balanced)

 

[CAFargo]

I was talking to one of my players, and he said that instead of reducing the skill list, each class should instead just get more skill points. For example, +2 skill points allows a fighter to take jump, climb, swim, and balance without having any int bonus (what type of fighter needs to think?), and makes it more likely that a wizard will know something about a subject thanks to +2 knowledge skills.

This system also discourages the making of rogues who are smarter that wizards, and allows a mediocre roll to be put in int while good rolls are put into dex, con, and str, probably in that order. This makes the rogue a far more viable class to play, surely beating the rogue with low hp and AC.

 

[Celebrim]

I was talking to one of my players, and he said that instead of reducing the skill list, each class should instead just get more skill points.

I've historically given more skill points (but I've also got a bigger skill list).

Lately though I've been wrestling with an idea for a more dramatic change.

Instead of giving more skill points, I'm considering giving 2 skill points per level per point of intelligence bonus.

Right now the options I have before me are.

1) Give every class 1-3 more skill points per level (what I've done before). I'm afraid though that as base skill points go up, the temptation to dump stat int is increased. Intelligence is irrelevant for most builds except for skill points. I fear making it utterly irrelevant.
2) Give every class about the same skill points (or 1 more), but also give 2 skill points per intelligence bonus. There are some complexities and risks here too. Maybe I'd make intelligence too good so that everyone would feel compelled to take it.(?) The rules would also become more complicated because I don't want to double penalize players with low int. Worse, I couldn't just reduce skill points significantly because then I'd be forcing the high intelligence route. So a human rogue with 18 INT would under this model get at least 17 skill points per level, which is sufficient to be pretty much skillful at everything. Is that too much? Isn't kinda boring to be good at everything? Or maybe rogues will feel less compelled to take 18 INT, but instead be happy with 14 or so, in which case, is that good?
3) Make the 2 skill points per level of int bonus be a class feature of a few select classes (like rogue). All the problems of the above, except it solves the rules complexity issue and becomes a nice balance tool for skill classes.