ENnies V - and beyond...

[Michael Morris]

Bearing in mind that I am just a fanboy with no industry experience of any kind who has never been to Gen Con....

Why the maximum cap?

Why the max cap?

These suggested categories are about individuals, not products. Presumably they'd send what they felt their best work was. 15 was a cap on submissions per person NOT a cap on products worked on.

If I were a writer nominating myself for the work I'd done under a superior editor, I'd send in the published manuscript. I'm not trying to cause grief, but I'd rather point this stuff out in a "tough love" kind of way.

And without commentary who is to say the editor didn't entirely rewrite it???

While I like the principle of the inidividual awards, I'm not sure they can be executed fairly - if at all.

Why just 80%?

To prevent a 40 page adventure and 30 pages of prestige classes and spells being called an adventure. To prevent a campaign sourcebook with 3 or so sample adventures from being an adventure nominee. 80% in my mind allows enough sufficient supplemental material. Still, admittedly, it is an arbritrary line.

A prolific small publisher would get boned in the second. A subsidiary of a major company would always win the first.

I don't see many prolific small guys putting more than 4 PRINT products / quarter unless they do it through a larger house (i.e. Game Mechanics publishing through Green Ronin). And in that case, I don't feel sorry for them, they have the resources of the larger house to draw on.

No. If othergamingsite.com wants to particiapte in judging they can have their own booth at Gen Con. ENWorld got to where it is the hard way. The owners and maintainers of ENWorld have nothing to apologize for. There are PLENTY of other categories that other sites can honor. Frankly, I think there should be a couple of "d20 only" subdivisions on your list. ENWorld is primarily a d20 site. There is nothing stopping The Forge or RPG.net from doing the exact same thing ENWorld does.

<small snip>

Here I'm a little more wobbly. However, I'd still prefer that we recruit within ENWorld. These are our awards and there is nothing, nothing wrong with being proud of that.

Just my two cents.

This issue I'm sure is one of the most divisive, but I feel it is crucial. ENWorld is a fan community, but not the only one. The best counter to the charge of favoritism towards d20 is to farm out some of the judge spots, though we should remain the only site that keeps multiple spots. (2 of the 5).

The ENnies are a child of not one but two parents. ENWorld the first, and Gencon second. Becoming the Gencon award has given this award no small amount of prestige, but also grave responsibility. A fan award that caters exclusively to one group of rpg gamers (d20) isn't fair. The one step (becoming the RPG awards) requires the second in my mind. That first step is a requirement of Peter's.

Which sedgeways directly into my respose to DaveMage

The more the awards expand beyond D&D/d20 the less value they have for me. Since judges are already stretched pretty thin, don't spend any resources on non-d20 games.

Sorry, but this cannot be done. Inclusion of non-d20 games is a requirement of our continued status as the Gencon Awards. I, for one, do not want to go back to giving out the awards on mIRC.

Also, split D&D-d20 and non-D&D d20 into different categories.

For example, I want to know who produced the best D&D-usable monster manual. Crooks! may be a fabulous product, and quite deserving of an award. But I would never use it since I don't play M&M.

Again, not feasable. Fantasy is but one genre within RPG's, albeit a huge one. We cannot have 101 categories, else the awards become diluted. It has become incumbent upon us to include all RPG's so we must do so as best we can.

Non-D&D d20 products can certainly be rewarded at the ENnies, but the core of EN World has always been D&D (just look at the number of posts that have to do with D&D vs. the ones that have to do with other systems). I believe that the awards should be the same way.

And I don't. The ENnies are the child of ENWorld, but they've already stepped along a seperate path - one for the better I believe.

Looking at a list of nominees within all categories that have nothing to do with D&D makes me long for a separate award just for D&D-related products. The way the ENnies are, I don't necessarily know who is producing the best D&D-d20 products. That's what I wish the ENnies could show me.

I think that despite our limitations, we may be able to do just that. Consider the following two possible categories...

Best Medieval Fantasy Product
Best Sci-Fi/Modern Fantasy Product

Yes, Both of these have multiple subdivisions, but they are distinct. Added to the list above we'd reach 12, and subtract out the probably untenable individual awards and we stand at 9.

 

[Psion]

Also, split D&D-d20 and non-D&D d20 into different categories.

I'll go with Spoony on that one... we don't need more divisions. We need less.

(Not to mention, dancing around D&D is a trademark permission mess to define we don't want to get into.)

For anyone with though experiments about what the awards should look like, consider this. Take it as an axiom we don't want new categories.

Now, let's say you think a new division is essential. For each such proposed division, ask yourself which existing division you are going to remove, and how that is going to be a more functional division than the existing one.

Besides, you have seen the nominee list, 4 of which were D&D targeted. What was wrong with those as a list of "suggested titles". You don't need to buy the winner if that's not your thing, any more than you have to go see Titanic (insert gagging noise here) because it was movie of the year if that's not your thing. The gold and silver winner are just chestbeating.

 

[DaveMage]

In that case, the ENnies should work toward evolving into the GenCon awards - especially if the financial backing can come from GenCon.

However, in that case they might as well just be the Origins awards all over again.

The award changes as being presented above means that their value to me, as a solely-D&D/d20 consumer is minimal. A far cry from how it started.

Pity.

I do understand, though, if economic realities make it this way, but I don't have to be happy about it.

 

[DaveMage]

Besides, you have seen the nominee list, 4 of which were D&D targeted. What was wrong with those as a list of "suggested titles". You don't need to buy the winner if that's not your thing, any more than you have to go see Titanic (insert gagging noise here) because it was movie of the year if that's not your thing. The gold and silver winner are just chestbeating.

True, but someone posted a while back that a good way to find great D&D products was to look at the past ENnies winners. Now, they will have to dig a bit more.

Perhaps it would be a good idea, though, if the above changes are made, to specify the game that a product is for (in addition to listing the product). For example, when I saw Crooks! listed as best monster book, I had no idea what game that was for. It would have been nice to have it listed as:

Crooks! (Mutants & Masterminds, Green Ronin Publishing)

That way we know instantly if the product is something we feel would add value to our game. Just a thought.

(Oh, and I should add, that while my comments may seem otherwise, I really do appreciate the effort that is involved in this process, and congratulate *all* the winners, regardless of whether I'll use the products or not. I have great respect for the folks at Green Ronin, and don't mean to imply in any way that Crooks! is not deserving of an award.)

 

[Psion]

Russ is the final arbirter on whether he wants to spin them off of ENworld. Not even the judges have that much shaping power. AFAIAC, it would be a bit of a betrayal to see that happen. But he has been pushing the whole site to be more open than general, so it would not surprise me if he intends to address that in other ways.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

I suspect fees of some sort are going to be essential unless we find a charitable gamer with deep pockets who wants to provide several thousand dollars each year. As Alsih2o alluded to last week, the ENnies hemmorhage cash.

Give that some thought, and come up with clever solutions!

I had absolutely no idea. I can't believe you guys did all that all this time.

Wow.

 

[Chaos Drake]

Well I think the ENnies should keep to d20/OGL. I'm not sure about electing judges from other boards either. The ENnies judge decide the final 5 products in the lineup; I don't really see having external judges will 'improve' the process. In fact, I think the selection this year was great. However, I think they should drop the Honorable Mention thing. If a book is going to have an honorable mention, it should be up there amongst the nominees, allowing voters to rate it alongside the others.

Finally, yes, move the cut-off earlier so to allow a longer time for voters to pick up the products. And a longer voting period. I think the ENnies did a great job this year. Thanks to the judges, the folks behind the scene and Morrus for putting it together.

 

[Michael Morris]

In that case, the ENnies should work toward evolving into the GenCon awards - especially if the financial backing can come from GenCon.

However, in that case they might as well just be the Origins awards all over again.

I find that comment highly insulting. Origins never has been (to my knowledge) and never will be a fan award. Whatever the ENnies becomes, it will remain an award decided by the fans and supported primarily by them

By accident or design we were seated right next to the Origins booth. It was odd contrast really. The Origins were once the most widely lauded and sought award in gaming. But after a series of scandals their prestige is undermined and it shows in the way they are spoke of throughout the net across multiple boards. The ENnies meanwhile are the scrappy newcomer to the scene - still struggling to define themselves sure, but with a pure heart. They had their spiffy $1000 dollar booth manned primarily by employees - we had our granted booth decorated only by what *I* could personally afford (along with Hellhound's dry-erase board) manned and visited by enthusiastic volunteers.

I asked them about their statues and I got a long elaborate snotty answer equivocating to "you can't afford to give this away, so go away."

Yeah, Origins is not all that. They are, at best, a guilded monster collapsing in on themselves. To insinuate that we (the ENnies staff and judges) will go down that same path of corruption is to slap us in the face.

 

[Michael Morris]

Well I think the ENnies should keep to d20/OGL. I'm not sure about electing judges from other boards either. The ENnies judge decide the final 5 products in the lineup; I don't really see having external judges will 'improve' the process. In fact, I think the selection this year was great. However, I think they should drop the Honorable Mention thing. If a book is going to have an honorable mention, it should be up there amongst the nominees, allowing voters to rate it alongside the others.

Finally, yes, move the cut-off earlier so to allow a longer time for voters to pick up the products. And a longer voting period. I think the ENnies did a great job this year. Thanks to the judges, the folks behind the scene and Morrus for putting it together.

How many times will I need to repeat this --
[h1]There will be no return to a d20/OGL award format! Next year and all future years will include all RPG's in all categories.[/h1]

 

[Mouseferatu]

As a professional RPG writer, let me chime in on the notion of awards for specific contributors. (Best author, best artist, etc.)

In brief, please God no!!!

To put it bluntly, there is no possible way for such an award to be executed or judged fairly. The vast majority of books out there are collaborative efforts. Using myself as an example, I've been doing this work for almost four years now. In that time, I have had exactly three projects on which I was the sole author--and one of those was a novel.

Look through a given WotC hardback, or Vampire: The Requiem, or the like. Multiple authors, with no indication of who wrote which sections. And even if the nominating companies were willing to send you the info on who wrote what, how are the fans--that is, the voters--going to know? And even if you told them, how many readers actually pay attention to which parts of the book were better written than others? Sure, if one section is notably good or notably bad, they might remember, but it doesn't happen often. This is especially true considering that part of the job of a developer is to make the entire book speak in one voice.

Let's go further yet. The voters aren't going to have access to the pre-developed/edited manuscripts, so even if you're nominating based on those, they're voting on the published material--which once again includes possible rewrites by editors.

And those are just the initial concerns. How many works do you judge by? What if an author is normally very solid, but has a bad book under his belt, and it's that book that draws the most attention for the year? What if the reverse is true? You simply cannot judge the quality of an author by a single work.

It's simply something that I wouldn't want to see, because I don't think it's feasible to do fairly or accurately. And that's speaking as both a writer and a gamer. The Ennies Awards are for games and products; let's keep them about the products, please.