Entangle - A Little Too Strong For A 1st Level Spell?

[Nail]

How exactly would you drop prone when the spell immobilizes you on a failed save?

Entangled |= Immobilized.

So: dropping prone (given you can't make a DC 20 Str check or a DC 20 Esc Artist check....) is possible.

(Is a DC 20 Str or Esc Artist check ever impossible for a PC? Any PC you know? )

 

[Nail]

Scalable difficulty should be the rule. Arbitrarily fixed difficulties are broken...too hard at easy levels, too easy at hard levels...they're just stupid, really.

Agreed.

I was just looking over the skill section the other day, and re-examined a table there:

Table: Difficulty Class Examples

Difficulty (DC) Example (Skill Used)
Very easy (0) Notice something large in plain sight (Spot)
Easy (5) Climb a knotted rope (Climb)
Average (10) Hear an approaching guard (Listen)
Tough (15) Rig a wagon wheel to fall off (Disable Device)
Challenging (20) Swim in stormy water (Swim)
Formidable (25) Open an average lock (Open Lock)
Heroic (30) Leap across a 30-foot chasm (Jump)
Nearly impossible (40) Track a squad of orcs across hard ground after 24 hours of rainfall (Survival)

In most games I've played in, skill checks in the 40's start happening in the mid-high levels. They are certainly NOT "nearly impossible".

 

[Olaf the Stout]

Entangled |= Immobilized.

So: dropping prone (given you can't make a DC 20 Str check or a DC 20 Esc Artist check....) is possible.

(Is a DC 20 Str or Esc Artist check ever impossible for a PC? Any PC you know? )

The spell specifically states that the person is immobilized (i.e. unable to move even 5ft.) on a failed save, in addition to being entangled. If they can't move even 5ft. I don't see how they would be able to drop to the ground.

Olaf the Stout

 

[Machiavelli]

Gravity.

These plants grab you and hold you, but they still obey gravity like you do.


Also, I really like the line that explicitly reminds you of something that's true all the time, anyway: DM discretion. If you cast Entangle on, say, a single petunia, your enemies may be perhaps slightly prettier, but ultimately unhindered. Cast it on the nastiest cacti you can imagine, and maybe you'll even get a bit of extra piercing damage per round! Cast it on a Joshua tree, and that Strength check may get a +2 modifier to the DC. Earthen tunnel lined only with rootlets and such? The Reflex save may be eliminated (no place to dodge!) but then the Strength check DC may drop to a flat 5.

Of course, the flat saves are a bad design decision, IMO. They still bow to Rule Zero.

 

[Darklone]

The spell specifically states that the person is immobilized (i.e. unable to move even 5ft.) on a failed save, in addition to being entangled. If they can't move even 5ft. I don't see how they would be able to drop to the ground.

Olaf the Stout

Immobilized isn't a condition from the condition summary... and dropping prone is not defined as movement either.

 

[frankthedm]

[IMaGel]http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/7273/entangleqd2.th.gif[/IMaGel] Balance issues aside, here is an entangle template...

Nail's opinion on this one matches mine.

Plus the spell kills charging in 80' whether you make the save or not due to your movement being reduced. That alone makes it a touch too good IMHO.

 

[Nail]

The spell specifically states that the person is immobilized (i.e. unable to move even 5ft.) on a failed save, in addition to being entangled.

Well, actually:

Grasses, weeds, bushes, and even trees wrap, twist, and entwine about creatures in the area or those that enter the area, holding them fast and causing them to become entangled. The creature can break free and move half its normal speed by using a full-round action to make a DC 20 Strength check or a DC 20 Escape Artist check. A creature that succeeds on a Reflex save is not entangled but can still move at only half speed through the area. Each round on your turn, the plants once again attempt to entangle all creatures that have avoided or escaped entanglement.

No "immobilized" there!

The PH 3.5e doesn't use the word "immobilized".....

....where are you finding that word?

 

[Nifft]

Immobilized as a formal condition was introduced in Tome of Magic.

However, I'd read "holding them fast" to be an informal synonym to "holding them immobile". Not paralyzed, but not able to move from their current square(s), either.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Mistwell]

Typical adventures often involve a dungeon or indoors area. This spell requires plants to be of any use, and most of those settings have no plants. Hence, it is often a useless spell.

Sure, it is powerful when your opponent is surrounded by plants...but that is relatively rare. I'd say it is not overpowered.

 

[Nail]

...but that is relatively rare. I'd say it is not overpowered.

The rarity of spell use means the spell can be more powerful?

Excellent.

I shall invent a 1st level spell that only works on tuesdays, but does 100 hp of damage, no save.


...and then, I shall only prepare it on Tuesdays.