Entangle - A Little Too Strong For A 1st Level Spell?

[Nail]

At any rate, are you basically saying that for all intents and purposes, we can treat the given radius of a spell as a maximum?

So long as there is "headroom", the answer is: Yes.

 

[Mistwell]

Is there any reason you can't air burst the entangle? On a grid the vertical dimensions should be about the same as the horizontal dimensions. Doing that already lets you dial the radius as you desire.

While technically true, I doubt either of my two DMs would allow me to airburst a spell that targets plants on the ground. It would just feel like cheating. Both my DMs would likely require the entire area of effect every time the spell is cast.

 

[Mistwell]

Oh......hello.

That's a great (and legitimate) idea! Minimum radius then is....hmmm... 5 feet? You could just hit the big guy in front of your Ftr while he's flanked by your Rog. Brilliant.

That is, unless there are any trees or tall bushes nearby. The spell will still impact those plants which are not low on the ground...which is a fairly common thing. And then your rogue and fighter are unintentially grabbed by a tree...

 

[Mistwell]

Again, if this wasn't clear:

frankthedm, in one blow, crushes the argument: "Entangle isn't overpowered 'cause it's too big to use".

<crushed>

It's actually adjustable!

So....what's not overpowered, again?

Hey I was not arguing it was not overpowered because of the area of effect. I was arguing it's because of the lack of opportunity to use the spell.

Which is the more powerful spell (this question is for everyone):

Spell # 1
Area: Plants in a 40-ft.-radius spread
Grasses, weeds, bushes, and even trees wrap, twist, and entwine about creatures in the area or those that enter the area, holding them fast and causing them to become entangled. The creature can break free and move half its normal speed by using a full-round action to make a DC 20 Strength check or a DC 20 Escape Artist check. A creature that succeeds on a Reflex save is not entangled but can still move at only half speed through the area. Each round on your turn, the plants once again attempt to entangle all creatures that have avoided or escaped entanglement. Note: The effects of the spell may be altered somewhat, based on the nature of the entangling plants.

OR

Spell #2
Area: 40-ft.-radius spread
Rock, Dirt, Plants, Wood, Water, Metal, Inanimate Objects, and even the very Air wrap, entwine, and envelop about creatures in the area or those that enter the area, as if they were living things, holding them fast and causing them to become entangled. The creature can break free and move half its normal speed by using a full-round action to make a DC 20 Strength check or a DC 20 Escape Artist check. A creature that succeeds on a Reflex save is not entangled but can still move at only half speed through the area. Each round on your turn, the area once again attempts to entangle all creatures that have avoided or escaped entanglement.

For me, and I think almost everyone, Spell #2 is more powerful than Spell #1 because it has much wider application. If if Spell #2 is more powerful, then you have to admit that the "plants" requirement of the spell is an actual limitation that should be accounted for in any discussion of the power of this spell.

 

[Nail]

That is, unless there are any trees or tall bushes nearby. The spell will still impact those plants which are not low on the ground...which is a fairly common thing. And then your rogue and fighter are unintentially grabbed by a tree...

If they aren't in the area of effect, they can't be.

Are you claiming that by casting this spell at the base of a 200 ft tall tree, I can entangle something that's at the top of the tree?

...aren't you the same one that's claiming Entangle is NOT overpowered?

 

[Nail]

Hey I was not arguing it was not overpowered because of the area of effect.....

Ummmmm......you sure? Help me interpret what you are saying here:

As I was saying, I think the area of this spell being too big is a drawback of the spell, not a benefit, to the caster. There is a point where it's too much, and I think this spell passed that point in my experience with it.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Yep.

I know yer tryin' t' be sarcastic, but in this case it's unwarranted. D&D has always (in 3.xe) had a spell targeting system in which the caster may chose exactly where to place the spell effect. "Surgical precision" is part-n-parcel of the 3.xe system.

Come on. Don't tell me you've never seen a Wizard place his fireball just so in order to exclude a party member from its radius? How about lining up a Wall of Fire in just the right way? Etc, etc....

That said, many people forget about the 3rd dimension when playing on a battle map.



...if you are looking for a limiting factor, remember this: Dungeons usually have low ceilings.

Wow, we play that way all the time. We use minis and a grid, and the DM frowns upon us when we get out the measuring stick so we can precisely aim area effect spells. Otherwise, you never get a spell that sometimes falls short. That is great storywise, and something we usually remember. "Remember that time you tried to fireball those enemies and you were off by 5 feet to the left?". But I guess not everyone plays that way, so, to each his own...

We even do this with charges... If an opponent is far away, and we can charge a max of 60 feet, if we fall short by a square or two... oh well. Again, that's just how we play, and we enjoy those little idiosyncrasies (did I use that word correctly?)

Now, I'm not saying we NEVER measure and pinpoint stuff, but we always try not to.

 

[Nail]

If if Spell #2 is more powerful, then you have to admit that the "plants" requirement of the spell is an actual limitation that should be accounted for in any discussion of the power of this spell.

Granted.

Allowing Entangle to use more than plants ("the very air itself...") does make this spell significantly more powerful.

That said, limiting this spell to just plants does not limit the spell so much that all of its other over-powered parameters are warranted. It's not the primary factor (as I've been saying all along.) Put another way: slapping extra limitations on a spell isn't the same as allowing extra options for a spell. It's not a linear trend. Reducing fireball so that it's only effective outside doesn't drop it to a 1st level spell!

If limitations did work as you contend, then there would be nothing wrong with this spell:

Dungeon Entangle
Transmutation
Level: Drd 1, Earth 1, Rgr 1
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: A stone floor inside in a 40-ft.-radius spread
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: Reflex partial; see text
Spell Resistance: No

Stone floors (that are not outdoors) wrap, twist, and entwine about creatures in the area or those that enter the area, holding them fast and causing them to become entangled. The creature can break free and move half its normal speed by using a full-round action to make a DC 20 Strength check or a DC 20 Escape Artist check. A creature that succeeds on a Reflex save is not entangled but can still move at only half speed through the area. Each round on your turn, the stone floor once again attempts to entangle all creatures that have avoided or escaped entanglement.

Note: The effects of the spell may be altered somewhat, based on the nature of the entangling floor.

 

[Nail]

Now, I'm not saying we NEVER measure and pinpoint stuff, but we always try not to.

I get that...and that sounds cool!

...but in the games I've seen or played in or DMed, the DM doesn't quibble over how a player puts a spell effect down.

Fun is as fun does, sir.

 

[Nail]

@Mistwell: =>

Spoiler

BTW, most of my current players don't think Entangle is overpowered. So I'm used to not being able to convince people on this subject.

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