Entering a Web

[Warmage-in-Onley]

I realize that, but it's the only part of the spell description that allows us to reasonable interpret "become subject to". The only other choice is that someone could walk freely through the web without effect at all (because all of the effects depend upon the save), and that's contradictory to "become subject to".

So, you have a choice. Ignore the "is cast" part of the spell description (or reinterpret it or new creatures), or ignore the spell entirely.

But I don't think that all of the effects depend upon the save. If the save is successful, the creature is entangled. If the save fails, the creature is entangled. Entangling isn't save dependent, if you're in the web you have to make Str or Escape Artist checks to move through it, and that's the effect I would have for those that enter the area after its initial casting.

 

[Infiniti2000]

But I don't think that all of the effects depend upon the save. If the save is successful, the creature is entangled. If the save fails, the creature is entangled. Entangling isn't save dependent, if you're in the web you have to make Str or Escape Artist checks to move through it, and that's the effect I would have for those that enter the area after its initial casting.

So, why do you choose to treat it as if the save was successful? If both entangling conditions are really identical, why does the spell give different effects? I say entangling IS save dependent because it's just entangling.

If the save is irrelevant, explain why you choose one effect over the other.

 

[Warmage-in-Onley]

So, why do you choose to treat it as if the save was successful? If both entangling conditions are really identical, why does the spell give different effects? I say entangling IS save dependent because it's just entangling.

If the save is irrelevant, explain why you choose one effect over the other.

The save determines whether you need to make a DC20 Str/DC 25 Escape Artist check to get loose, or a DC10 Str/Escape Artist check to move. Both entangling conditions are identical once you are trying to move through the web, but the failed save condition requires a much harder check to even get to attempt the second check (for movement).

 

[KarinsDad]

If the save is irrelevant, explain why you choose one effect over the other.

Simple.

The movement portion of the spell is different and distinct than the initial entangle condition which prevents movement.

If you start outside of the Web, you are not entangled at all. You are merely moving through the Web.

If you start inside of the Web, it does not matter if you missed your save or not. You cannot move through it without making a Str or Escape Artist check each round. The save merely helps determine when you can do that (either immediately, or after you make Str or Escape Artist check).

Both of these are movement. Both use the Web movement rules.

You are adding a "when you enter the Web, the spell is now cast on you" rule that does not seem appropriate. You are moving when you enter a Web, so you use the movement in Web rule. You do not use the "within the area when it was cast" rule because a) that did not happen to you, and b) you are moving.


In other words, in the case that you are in the Web and make the save and in the case that you are outside the Web, you can move through the web on the next round by making the appropriate check because in neither of these cases are you both entangled and prevented from moving.

Moving through the Web does not force a new saving throw, regardless of how you managed to start moving through the Web. The character moving from outside the web is not forced to make a saving throw no more than the character moving inside it is (once he starts moving). This would be no different than a character who leaves the Web and then goes back in. He too is only moving and follows the Web movement rules.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Both entangling conditions are identical once you are trying to move through the web, but the failed save condition requires a much harder check to even get to attempt the second check (for movement).

Exactly, and you've decided that any creature entering the web is considered to have automatically succeeded. You're not just imposing the entangled condition, you're imposing a succesful save (or if you want, a failed save but a successful escape).

You are adding a "when you enter the Web, the spell is now cast on you" rule that does not seem appropriate.

I think it's entirely appropriate because I think it most closely follows from the rule I previously quoted. I think your interpretation actually deviates from that even further. You're giving people entering the web some sort of ability to walk through as if they knew how to avoid the effects, and I don't agree with that.

IMO, if you don't agree with my interpretation, I think the best choice is to merely impose the entangled condition. I don't agree that you can use any part of that paragraph if you ignore the saving throw.

 

[Caliban]

Sorry Infiniti, but your interpretation really doesn't make any sense to me. The initial save is to see if the web has stuck you to the spot when it appeared around you, nothing more. The rest of the effects are independant of the save. (Which is part of why it's such a powerful 2nd level spell.)

If you are outside the web, then you weren't stuck to the spot when the web was cast, so you just have to deal with forcing your way through the web just like anyone else.

With Web you only have to make the save once, unlike other spells such as Grease or Entangle, where you have a chance to be affected every round (unless they changed grease that much, don't have my books with me.)

 

[Infiniti2000]

If you are outside the web when it is cast, obviously you make no save at that point. If you then enter the web (willingly or not), you are "subject to the spell".

For those who disagree with my interpretation, I ask you to define that as clearly and consistently as possible. Keep in mind the rules on saving throws: "Generally, when you are subject to an unusual or magical attack, you get a saving throw to avoid or reduce the effect."

Since web allows a saving throw, and if you enter a web you are subject to it, I say you get a save when you enter a web. I disagree with the interpretation that you are considered to automatically succeed at it.

 

[Warmage-in-Onley]

Is it your contention, then, that there can be no spells that have an area of effect that would allow a saving throw (for those in the area at the time of casting) to avoid one condition, but require a check of some type to avoid a second condition (for those that are in the area after the time of casting)?

My contention is not that you automatically succeed at the saving throw. My contention is that the spell involves 2 conditions, 1 that requires a save at the time of casting, and 1 that requires a check after the time of casting. Those that enter the area after the spell has been cast are not subject to condition 1, but are subject to condition 2. I don't think that this is an unreasonable interpretation of what a magic spell might be designed to do.

 

[Caliban]

If you are outside the web when it is cast, obviously you make no save at that point. If you then enter the web (willingly or not), you are "subject to the spell".

For those who disagree with my interpretation, I ask you to define that as clearly and consistently as possible. Keep in mind the rules on saving throws: "Generally, when you are subject to an unusual or magical attack, you get a saving throw to avoid or reduce the effect."

Since web allows a saving throw, and if you enter a web you are subject to it, I say you get a save when you enter a web. I disagree with the interpretation that you are considered to automatically succeed at it.

I'm not particularly interested in abstract rules interpretations that hinge on a technicality.

 

[ceratitis]

How about if you get bull rushed into the web? I think bull rushing an opponent into the web and then lighting it on fire is an excellent tactic.

i agree but thats the difference between doing something stupid and falling pray to a good tactic. btw- as a tactic i'd leave him stuck and use a bow to give him a porkipine effect
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