entry into Arcane trickster

[Kobold Stew]

Hi,

To become an arcane trickster one must be able to cast third level arcane spells and Mage Hand. The flavour text (DMG 177) says assassins go this route "usually only if they have wizard or sorcerer levels."

I'm stuck on "usually":

Would a "hand of the mage" (900 gp!) allow a Rogue 5/Assassin 5 to go this route?

How else to explain "usually" (preferably core)?

Thanks.

 

[Kobold Stew]

p.s.

Are there (core) rules for handling the +1 to spellcasting class beyond normal?

e.g. Rogue 5/ Assassin 5/ Arc Trick 10 would have spellcasting of a 15th level assasin (?)

 

[Jack Simth]

Are there rules? Yes. Are they core? Maybe. If you consider everything in the SRD to be core, then Yes, they are core. If the SRD is not considered Core, then check the Epic Level Handbook. If that's Core, then so are the rules for handling spellcasting over the listed amount in the class.

As for what they are.....

In general, past the listed progression, spell slots do not advance for any class (barring feats and increases in ability scores that grant bonus spell slots), spells known for spontaneous casters don't increase (Sorceror, Bard) while spells known for prepared casters do (Wizard).

The SRD epic progressions for the SRD base Prestige Classes can be found Here

 

[Corsair]

"Usually" because in theory you could be a bard also!


Personally if you're gonna go assassin into AT, I'd go:

Rogue1/Wizard5/Assassin1/Arcane Trickster

Be a human with Able Learner, and you can keep your skills up.

 

[Squire James]

I'd probably allow the assassin with a Hand of the Mage enter the class, but he loses all prestige class abilities if he loses that Hand! If he has no other arcane spellcasting class, effective levels beyond 10th will gain no new spells known or spells per day, but caster level is still 15th (which is of only minor use). Even a single level of Wizard would help greatly here, because Wizard 11 is still MUCH better than Assassin 15 as far as spells go!

 

[Kobold Stew]

I'd probably allow the assassin with a Hand of the Mage enter the class, but he loses all prestige class abilities if he loses that Hand! ... Even a single level of Wizard would help greatly here, because Wizard 11 is still MUCH better than Assassin 15 as far as spells go!

Thanks; obviously I know it is "better" to take a level of a traditional spellcasting class; I guess I was tying to optimize towards ranged sneak attack, and I saw the "usually".

My thought was without the hand of the mage (if he lost it), he'd be unable to progress as an arc trckster, rather than lose all class abilities (which seems harsh!)

 

[Jack Simth]

Thanks; obviously I know it is "better" to take a level of a traditional spellcasting class; I guess I was tying to optimize towards ranged sneak attack, and I saw the "usually".

My thought was without the hand of the mage (if he lost it), he'd be unable to progress as an arc trckster, rather than lose all class abilities (which seems harsh!)

One of the big class abilities of the Arcane Trickster appear to rely on having Mage Hand available:

Ranged Legerdemain: An arcane trickster can perform one of the following class skills at a range of 30 feet: Disable Device, Open Lock, or Sleight of Hand. Working at a distance increases the normal skill check DC by 5, and an arcane trickster cannot take 10 on this check. Any object to be manipulated must weigh 5 pounds or less.

An arcane trickster can use ranged legerdemain once per day initially, twice per day upon attaining 5th level, and three times per day at 9th level or higher. He can make only one ranged legerdemain skill check each day, and only if he has at least 1 rank in the skill being used.

(Emphasis added)
Then read the description of Mage Hand:

Mage Hand

Transmutation

Level: Brd 0, Sor/Wiz 0 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target: One nonmagical, unattended object weighing up to 5 lb. Duration: Concentration Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No You point your finger at an object and can lift it and move it at will from a distance. As a move action, you can propel the object as far as 15 feet in any direction, though the spell ends if the distance between you and the object ever exceeds the spell’s range.

(Emphasis added)


Think the two might be related?

 

[Scion]

only in that they have similar wording so likely the ability comes from something similar to the spell in question, or was at least based off of it somewhat

Still though, in 3.5 you dont have to keep qualify for the requirements to keep the abilities of the prc as far as I can tell. In complete warrior they added it back in.

But that doesnt change the fact that there are some prcs out there that by taking levels in them you no longer qualify for them, which sets up a pretty nasty problem. There is at least one in the dmg itself

Take that as you will.

 

[Felon]

How else to explain "usually" (preferably core)?

They're leaving room for other PrC's to get you 3rd-level arcane spells (like the assassin).

 

[Thanee]

I would definitely not allow that requirement to be fulfilled by a magic item.
You need to be able to cast Mage Hand [yourself, IMHO].

The item does not allow you to cast the spell.

Bye
Thanee