EoM-R Questions Continued...

[sirwmholder]

I hope I can illustrate this query detailed enough to get my point across... I'm having trouble calculating damage for this spell... and would a save be for half or no damage?

If I were to use *Move [Force] 4 / Gen [Area/Range] 1*... the effect could be eight squares ( using a battle mat ) of earth surrounding the caster lift into the air and all that earth can be dropped on a creature no more than 30 ft. away... dealing ??? damage for dropping 50,000 lbs. of dirt / stone / plant matter on them. Given that 1 cubic foot of earth weighs approximately 90 lbs. / stone weighs about 100 lbs. / and plant matter or roots weigh considerably less... using an average of 100 lbs. that would leave a 2.5 sq. foot hole around the caster and a lot of damage on a creature... granted the affected creature would get a reflex save... but for how much?... in any case for a level 5 Mage... ouchie... using similar wall spells from SRD I came up with 10d6... though to be honest 25 tons would deal more damage I would think.

Any help would be greatly appreciated,
Wm. Holder

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Very interesting idea.... hadn't thought of picking up a bunch of dirt and dropping it on someones head..


But, a couple of issues:
- add in +4 MP of Move Air to give the pile of sod a flight movement mode.
- Your Area of effect is actually a 10' circle, to get 30' of sod you need +3 MP for Area Effect
- When parts of the spell go beyond your range, the spell stops funtioning, so you also need to extend the range, +2 MP for Medium Range
- The sodonly has a movement rate of 30'

Then you have a spell capable of dropping a large section of turf on someones head...which means having to come up with damage..
Easiest way to do this is run it as falling damage rules...I have attached some HRs gleaned from the HR forum a while back.. you will have to extrapolate somewhat..

Remember, the basic concept that if you want to hurt someone, Evoke should be better than dropping sod on someones head....

The save would be for half..

 

[genshou]

Evoke Earth or Evoke Nature would be a faster and more efficient way of dealing physical damage, as it doesn't require you to spend a few rounds moving it into place and then hoping the enemy stays underneath until your next turn when you dismiss the spell. Since concentration on (in order to control) and dismissing a spell are both standard actions, you can only do one of them, once per round.

If your foe is helpless and you want to bury them, though, this would be a good way to do it.

Also, remember that the earth is firmly attached to itself. You can't just grab a chunk out of it and lift it off without breaking the dirt up first, unless it's already been loosened up into powdered dirt somehow.

 

[Verequus]

I believe it can be done a bit more elegant. As you need already to concentrate on the spell, you could choose to use the Concentration duration enhancement, which allows the dismissal of the spell via simple ceasing to concentrate.

 

[sirwmholder]

Thanks everyone for your for your quick responses. I can definitely use all of the help I can get .

Very interesting idea.... hadn't thought of picking up a bunch of dirt and dropping it on someones head..

This spell actually started off very differently... The intention was to lift a giant doughnut/column of the dirt around the caster and have it begin to spin... add a Scry 0 to see what's going on outside during combat and have the benefits of 100% concealment.

But, a couple of issues:
- add in +4 MP of Move Air to give the pile of sod a flight movement mode.

Aye you are absolutely right... I knew I forgot something

- Your Area of effect is actually a 10' circle, to get 30' of sod you need +3 MP for Area Effect
- When parts of the spell go beyond your range, the spell stops funtioning, so you also need to extend the range, +2 MP for Medium Range
- The sod only has a movement rate of 30'

I'm still not sure I need this one... Using the chart Area, Targeted 1 has a range of 30' and an area of effect of 10' radius... since I need the 5' square in front of me and the 5' square behind me the 10' radius should be adequate... after the spell is cast I want to move it up to 30' as per the range... or am I still reading this wrong?

Then you have a spell capable of dropping a large section of turf on someones head...which means having to come up with damage..
Easiest way to do this is run it as falling damage rules...I have attached some HRs gleaned from the HR forum a while back.. you will have to extrapolate somewhat..

Remember, the basic concept that if you want to hurt someone, Evoke should be better than dropping sod on someones head....

The save would be for half..

Wow... using Table 1: Object Resilience... I would say d6... because sod might not be as solid as wood (though the spell would lift just as much stone since it's based on weight and stone = 100lbs. per square foot)... on Table 2: Damage From Falling Objects... the last entry... would be 250... 250d6... reflex save for half... somehow this is seems to be much more than I intended... maybe make it non-lethal damage... and apply suffocation rules if they are not dug out...

Also, remember that the earth is firmly attached to itself. You can't just grab a chunk out of it and lift it off without breaking the dirt up first, unless it's already been loosened up into powdered dirt somehow.

I can see your point but it still seems odd to me to be able to lift 25 tons but not be strong enough to rip through roots while pulling it out of the ground...

I believe it can be done a bit more elegant. As you need already to concentrate on the spell, you could choose to use the Concentration duration enhancement, which allows the dismissal of the spell via simple ceasing to concentrate.

I was thinking of that also but I wanted to get the mechanics down before I added any of the details...

On a side note what would I need to lift the same area of dirt around the caster and have it explode outwards?

Thanks again,
Wm. Holder

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Frag...
Damn quad button mouse. I just finished a nice 30 minute long post..grabbed my mouse and hit the 'back' button...

Hmm.. shortened up..

Range and area of effect...
Radius? I could have sworn that was diameter.. will have to re-read when I get home...

Damage
I did some extrapolation on the table and came up with damage for a 5' cube of dirt dealing 1D8 per 5' of drop.. from 30' this makes 6D8, almost equivilent to the core Wall spells and about the same you can get from a pure Evoke {9D6 for the same area/MP cost}

As falling damage, the usual rules for non-lethal apply.. tumble checks etc...

Fling
The mechanics should be the same, so you can describe it as either ripping earth up and dropping it on the targets or as having the earth boil up and explode outward. You would still deal 6D8 to targets within 30' and knock them prone..cover them with a layer of dirt..and generally make a mess.

I would add the effect that the area the dirt came from and where it got dropped at is now difficult terrain...but thats just me

Sorry for missing all the reasoning behind the above.. but my lunch break is over and I can't afford to rewrite it all

 

[sirwmholder]

Range and area of effect...
Radius? I could have sworn that was diameter.. will have to re-read when I get home...

Damage
I did some extrapolation on the table and came up with damage for a 5' cube of dirt dealing 1D8 per 5' of drop.. from 30' this makes 6D8, almost equivilent to the core Wall spells and about the same you can get from a pure Evoke {9D6 for the same area/MP cost}

As falling damage, the usual rules for non-lethal apply.. tumble checks etc...

Fling
The mechanics should be the same, so you can describe it as either ripping earth up and dropping it on the targets or as having the earth boil up and explode outward. You would still deal 6D8 to targets within 30' and knock them prone..cover them with a layer of dirt..and generally make a mess.

I would add the effect that the area the dirt came from and where it got dropped at is now difficult terrain...but thats just me

Sorry for missing all the reasoning behind the above.. but my lunch break is over and I can't afford to rewrite it all

Thanks so much... I'm still not sure how to read your tables though . Given the above I need to add this... if a 5' cube of dirt deals 1d8 per 5' of drop... then a single 5' cube dropping 30' deals 6d8 damage... however this spell effects the eight squares surrounding the caster... going only 2.5' deep... so that would still be 24d8... unless I missed something... that's still too much damage for the 9 MP spent on the spell... I'm thinking of making a house rule... all spell damage is non-lethal damage unless it is the direct result of an Evoke Spell list... For this spell I rationalize it by you see it coming so you cover your vital spots... like a cave in... it may knock you out but it's not like dropping a lead weight on you.

As for the Fling I was thinking of adding Evoke Air for the Knockback effect... I'm loving the difficult terrain idea... I was thinking of having it leave a cloud of dust behind but I'm not sure if it should impede visibility though... thoughts?

Thanks again everyone for your help,
Wm. Holder

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

The additional side effects should be primarily descriptive.. I was thinking difficult terrain because, unlike Evoke that calls up the ton of sod, you are literally moving it from one place to another.. a natural consequence...
A cloud of dust could very well hang in the area, but not have any mechanical affect. It would add to the 'realism' of the encounter as the characters could be described as coughing, hacking.. waving arms to clear the air.. If it does provide a mechanical advantage you should have to pay extra MP for it...in this case create Fog

damage
"... however this spell effects the eight squares surrounding the caster... going only 2.5' deep... so that would still be 24d8... "

Yeah, this is what happens when I spend 30 minutes carefully laying out my reasoning...

- I added more layers to Table 2, doubling the weight of the object each time and halving the dropping distance. I decided that a 5' drop is the minimum rating that could be used. This allowed me to get up to the estimated weight of a 5' cube of dirt, based on your 90lbs for the 1' cube. Then, by raising the resiliance 1 step I reduced the effective weight 2 steps, until I had a dropping distance that would work.
- It worked out to match the Core damage and Evoke damage fairly resonably. Makes me think the HR Falling Objects was properly done.
- The one thing I didn't cut/paste from the thread was how to handle heavier than 200lb objects...

The main difference in calculations is that the entire mass does not damage the critter in the single square, just the cube of dirt directly above the critter. Essentially you are dropping individual chunks of sod that deal 6D8 damage to each square within your area of effect. Adding up the entire mass is a good way to convince people to Transform: Dragon and do death from above attacks... While 'realistic', I think it would impair the fun of the game.
If you are using only 2.5 cubic feet of depth essentially half the weight, then the falling increment would be every 10', making it 3D8. I think the spell has enough power to dig up 5' worth of depth

I much prefer a spell that has some very cool visuals, does some very different {from Core} effects, yet would not cause a player to yell 'no fair' when used on them.
Your 'Dump the Ground on Thier Heads' spell, which probably needs a cool name to match, fits this perfectly

The idea of having all non-Evokes deal non-lethal damage is an interesting one...The only objection I have is a tendency to try to keep the mechanics to match across similar situations..
So, if someone drops a 150 lb boulder from 100 ft' up, it should deal 5D10, REF for half and tumbling to deflect some damage to non-lethal {the covering up critical areas}
Then, if someone else 'Create: Nature' a 150 lb boulder and teleports to drop from 100' up, it should still deal 5D10, etc...

Area err... your right, it does say 'Radius'. I think I will continue to HR this to Diameter as Radius can get things pretty nasty.. I have done a Move: Death spells that just p*ssed my temporary DM off.. took a CR +4 encounter and turned it into a cakewalk.

The 2 BBGs were unintelligent undead charging the group.. I tossed down a -40 Move zone in front of them with a 40' "diameter"...on top of difficult terrain. They both failed thier saves and got stuck doing double moves for 10' progress...and became pin cushions for the archers and other caster.... DM decided he might want to read the rules he had allowed sight-unseen into the game

I can hardly image the pain of that being a 40' Radius!

 

[genshou]

I can see your point but it still seems odd to me to be able to lift 25 tons but not be strong enough to rip through roots while pulling it out of the ground...

I'm not referring to roots. You can't just lift a chunk of earth out of the ground without tearing it up first; look at how a backhoe is designed and how it operates to see a good example of the existence of this problem and how to counter it.

 

[sirwmholder]

...If you are using only 2.5 cubic feet of depth essentially half the weight, then the falling increment would be every 10', making it 3D8. I think the spell has enough power to dig up 5' worth of depth

I've done the calculations... but feel free to check me here...

50,000 lb. of sod ( 1 cubic foot of sod = 100 lb. )
500 cubic feet of sod
5x5 squares at 1' deep times 8 = 200 cubic feet

500/200 = 2.5' Hole around the caster...

Conversely you could have it go 5' deep and only 2.5' out... though the amount of dirt is unchanged. Or you could have it just do the 4 cardinal squares at 5' deep... since the mass is spinning it shouldn't matter that the corners are exposed... which may make more tactical sense... anyway... thoughts and suggestions are always welcomed

Attached is a page out of my spell book detailing this spell... hope you enjoy!

Thanks for all of the help,
Wm. Holder