D&D 5E (2024) Epic Boons Ranking

[Snarf Zagyg]

They did.

Some interesting thoughts-

1. If we accept that rules influence play, and also that no one reads the DMG, does the inclusion of boons in the PHB and the exposure to players mean that we are likely to see more high level (epic) play?

2. If so, what is that going to look like? IME, there isn't a lot of challenge in 5e as you start to get on up in levels.

3. OTOH, with the increased use of VTTs and DDB, this could automate some of the finicky stuff and enable more epic play, but they would need to create the challenges for it.

The solution? Stat the deities. Search your feelings, you know this to be true.

#DEITIESANDDEMIGODSLEGENDSANDLORECONFIRMED!

 

[Charlaquin]

Truesight to see the true forms of creatures at the tavern.

Folks who time their multiclassing right can take one at 19 and 20.

Folks with Wish can potentially replace all their feats with epic ones at 19. If they have Musician, odds of losing Wish drops from 33% to 11%.

Does the feat swapping option on Wish not specify that you can only swap for another feat of the same type? Background for background, general for general, epic for epic? If not, that’ll definitely be a house rule I use if I ever run a game that reaches high enough level to be casting Wish.

 

[lall]

Here is the text from Wish: “Sudden Learning. You replace one of your feats with another feat for which you are eligible. You lose all the benefits of the old feat and gain the benefits of the new one. You can't replace a feat that is a prerequisite for any of your other feats or features.”

 

[Mistwell]

40 hit points is hardly “a bit.” It’s almost as much as the 55 points of healing you get from Recovery. And you’ll be getting a few more points every time your party cleric casts a healing spell. That’ll easily add up to make up the 15 points of difference.

Heck you get more just drinking a potion of healing as a bonus action.

 

[Mistwell]

We don’t use healing spells or potions unless it is a BIG heal, in which case 4-5 extra HP doesn’t make much difference, or a little heal just being used to get someone back up, in which case the same. The action economy is terrible on anything but big heals or heals that pick up characters from zero.

Sure because in 2014 the resource expenditure is higher. But 19th level, healing potions cost nothing to buy essentially (and there is even a new higher level spell that can make a cauldron full of them), and you can expend a bonus action to chug it so you'd do that any time you didn't otherwise need your bonus action.

And keep in mind there are now other abilities and spells which let someone else expend a hit die. And fighter gets more second winds too.

 

[Silam]

I think Fortitude is actually much better than Recovery in most cases. Recovery’s 10d10 of self-healing every day sounds cool on paper, but it’s functionally about 55 HP - only 15 more than you get from Fortitude, and you have to actually take the damage first and then heal it, whereas Fortitude gives you the 40 up front.

Also, Fortitude adds your Con mod to all sources of healing, which would include hit dice you spend on a short rest. At 20th level, that’s going to mean 20x your con mod HP per day, which will probably mean about 40 for most characters; even more for barbarians. And that’s before considering any additional healing from spells or potions. I think that’s easily going to outpace the 1/2 HP once per day from Recovery, especially since you have to drop to 0 HP first, which might not even happen on any given day.

Interesting discussion (including the subsequent posts) about the comparison between these two boons.

I think one factor which wasn’t mentioned but will probably make everyone go "duh" is: how many big fights per day do you have?

Obviously, the feat which provides abilities once per long rest helps in just one of those big fights.

Whereas the feat which bumps up your max HP probably means you enter each and every fight of the day at that higher ceiling. This of course assumes you have the ability to get back to full health multiple times per day, either due to your own personal capabilities, expendable magic items, and/or healers in your party… but I don’t think it’s a stretch to assume that at epic levels, right?

 

[Clint_L]

Interesting discussion (including the subsequent posts) about the comparison between these two boons.

I think one factor which wasn’t mentioned but will probably make everyone go "duh" is: how many big fights per day do you have?

Obviously, the feat which provides abilities once per long rest helps in just one of those big fights.

Whereas the feat which bumps up your max HP probably means you enter each and every fight of the day at that higher ceiling. This of course assumes you have the ability to get back to full health multiple times per day, either due to your own personal capabilities, expendable magic items, and/or healers in your party… but I don’t think it’s a stretch to assume that at epic levels, right?

I think it sort of depends on how you play - our games tend to have a few big fights rather than a bunch of little ones, so that 55 HP is sure to be used, and getting dropped to zero is not uncommon. I feel like when that kicks in, you'll be really glad to have it, whereas a bit of extra healing on short rests or from a potion...eh. Probably won't make much difference.

 

[Clint_L]

That said, now that our latest campaign has been running for more than a year and seems to have the legs to eventually get to epic levels...I really want to take speed on my monk. She'll basically be the Flash.

 

[Silam]

I think it sort of depends on how you play - our games tend to have a few big fights rather than a bunch of little ones, so that 55 HP is sure to be used, and getting dropped to zero is not uncommon. I feel like when that kicks in, you'll be really glad to have it, whereas a bit of extra healing on short rests or from a potion...eh. Probably won't make much difference.

So… the number of big fights per day was brought up, but it seems we came to opposite conclusions …

Recovery gives two effects that work just once per long rest. It has been argued (cogently, I would say) that the size of these two benefits is a bit bigger than what Fortitude gives. I think this is true, and it favors Recovery in the context of a single big fight.

Fortitude, on the other hand, provides two benefits that are "passive", or always on. It raises your max HP (though by less than what Recovery would provide in one shot), and it gives the (arguably minor) ribbon of increasing the efficacy of healing. It is argued that the improved healing is minor because in the heat of battle, you benefit more from spending one (or as few as possible) discrete action(s) to get as much HPs healed as possible, and in that context the Fortitude bonus is a small fraction of the total healing you get. Whereas during downtime you can use lesser forms of healing spread out over many actions, each of which dole out the little extra bonus. All in all, the passive Fortitude benefits are therefore lesser in the context of one big fight compared to the expendable Recovery benefits.

My point was, however, that if we make the assumption that at epic levels there is plenty of healing available during downtime (both with and without short rests), then the number of big fights per day affects the balance of power between the two boons.

Fortitude’s always on passive benefits not only increases healing efficiency such that the downtime has a greater likelihood of bringing the character back to full health, but importantly, the raised ceiling of max HP can therefore be replenished multiple times per day. This means you can get into multiple big fights with those extra HPs in the tank (assuming you had at least a little bit of downtime between them, though not even necessarily as much as a short rest).

 

[Silam]

The solution? Stat the deities. Search your feelings, you know this to be true.

#DEITIESANDDEMIGODSLEGENDSANDLORECONFIRMED!

I’d love to see this!

But I would like an equivalent to the 3e Epic Level Handbook even more. I think those were the best epic rules I’ve seen from any edition. In 4e, epic levels 21-30 were baked into the core rules with comprehensive content, but I didn’t like 4e in general for other reasons… in 5e there are the boons but they feel like an afterthought. Fine little exclamation points at levels 19-20 but a bit lacking as the sole mechanic of progression beyond level 20 (IMHO). It’d be great to get a robust 5e ELH