Epic Destinies and Earth Giants

[cthulhus_pinky]

Hmm. In both these cases its the feel and flavor rather than the power. The archmage doesn't lack oomph because of his abilities, which are fine. But the powers are what I'd expect to be getting anyway at those levels (and given the one really high level power we've seen, the paladin smite that disrupts all line of effect from the target for a round, I don't expect world destroying). But they don't really have anything to do with being an archmage- you get some neat abilities at high level that allow you to be more of a wizard (in this case) and you get a paper hat that says 'Archmage' on it. The abilities are nice, but you might as well toss the hat in the rubbish bin. It doesn't add anything interesting to the character. If Bob the 30th level wizard who doesn't have the Archmage destiny wants to call himself an Archmage, who is going to tell him no?

So you are saying that the dailies for wizards are a little lacking in the epic teirs? Where did you get this information? Are you trying to tell us that because a paladin epic encounter power is a little lacking (but rocks if you are a defender, IMHO) that the wizards daily powers are going to be what? Not any good? Suck compared to ... what?

This is the problem I have with most of the nay sayers, on this forum as well as others, that tend to complain without understanding the whole picture. I am not saying that I do, but I am not comparing it to 3.x, 2e, or some ideal of what real fantasy should be like... and than assuming that it is some how weak in some way... or won't stand up to ... ??? Again, I don't understand what a lot of people are comparing this epic destiny to, as well as other bits of crunch.

Maybe a lot of people are comparing it to the 3.5 article? You do realize that the 3.5 article is all of the epic destinies, not just a sample. Also the 3.5 articles includes all of the the powers, where as, in the case of 4e EDs, they only have the one power, and that is a utility. All of the powers come from the class, and if someone can provide me with some underpowered epic wizard powers, compared with some other epic class powers, I would happily complain along with the rest.

As for those who don't like the fluff, well, it is call fluff for a reason. Change it. I do it all the time as both the DM and the player (with the DMs permission of course ). From the sounds of it they even want you to change the fluff. Take a look at the powers excerpt. They tell you that you can change the fluff that comes with the powers, and they use magic missile as an example. If you want you archmage to "retire" to a life in some other plane, constantly holding back the tides of darkness, do you really need the PHB to tell you to. That is the whole point of consulting with the DM about the epic destiny that you have chosen. D&D is about imagination and having fun with a group of your friend in a non-competitive game. You are the heroes. Your DM is responsible to make sure that your having a good time. Why are you letting a little fluff get you down. I really don't understand. WotC is not going to bust down your door, 'cause you ain't play'n exactly how they "designed" it. They want you to take the fluff and expand on it, change it, until you are happy with it. And if your DM says no to a bit of fluff change that won't change his world, I would look for a new group.

 

[ryryguy]

Hill giant:

Savage Haymaker (Standard Encounter Recharge )
Reach 2; +15 vs Fort, 1d10+12, opponent is weaked (save ends)

Hurling Swing (Standard At Will)
Reach 2; +15 vs AC, 1d10+5 and push 3.

For Earth Titans:

Stomp (Standard Encounter)
Reach 3; +20 vs. Reflex, 2d10+12, enemy is stunned, prone and weakened (save ends).

Rain of Stone (Standard Encounter)
Ranged 15 Area Burst 1; 18 vs. Reflex; 2d10+10, enemy is dazed, pushed 2

Pick Up (Standard, At Will)
Reach 3; +20 vs Reflex. Treat as regular grapple. Followup: Squeeze (+20 vs. Fort; 3d10+5) or Hurl (Push 8, 2d10+15)

Rending Bedrock Wave (Standard Encounter Recharge )
Close Blast 5; +20 vs. Reflex, 2d10+3, enemy is knocked prone, pushed 4.

Not to say that I don't like these particular abilities, and they certainly seem like some more fun options than what was given in the article.

However, isn't it part of the 4e plan that monster attack profiles (to-hit, damage, and presumably add-ons like push or stun) are very strongly determined by the monster's level and role? In order to help stay in that magic "sweet spot"? Perhaps that is why the giants in the article don't have the damage output nor some of the special effects that people are expecting from giants.

And if that is the case, it may not work out too well to simply bump up the damage output of these powers and to tack on more effects, which is what it seems like you've done here.

Note, my point here is not "4e rulez!!! and therefore your suggestions stink!!!", rather to point out why the giant stat blocks may look like they do. It could be argued that this is a weakness of the 4e framework: that it tends to make bland monsters which aren't greatly distinguished mechanically from other monsters.

I hope there is a very good look at the nuts and bolts of the framework with lots of guidelines for modifying monsters, so that if you do want to soup up a giant's stat block, you can do it in a way that won't blow everything up.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

Nothing at all. Its a title, nothing more. But they're trying to build it up into something amazing, and it looks kind of sad, because it remains just a title despite all the 'epicness' and 'destiny' that they're trying to imbue into it. The abilities wouldn't be out of place as just optional picks for wizard class abilities at levels 21, 24, and whatever. I like the abilities, there just doesn't seem to be any reason to separate it out and put on a pointy hat with 'archmage' stitched on it.

Maybe part of the problem is a lack of anything to compare it with. Are there other Epic Destinies for a Wizard that might have more interesting abilities? Perhaps the Archmage is one of the least inspired choices, but there is a lot of goodness among other destinies.

4 1/2 more weeks and we will know the answer to this.

 

[keterys]

I suspect that cultural background does not automatically make a monster cooler than a new idea. One man's background can be another's baggage, and all that.

At any rate, I'm okay with earth titans not throwing up walls of stone - honestly that's not going to really make their combat more interesting. I do wonder if there are any additional earth titans to throw at people. Ie, like an earth titan stoneshaper, earth titan mountainstomper, whatever.

 

[ryryguy]

So, folks, do epic destinies really mean that the likes of Elminster and The Symbul have been forced into mandatory retirement?

I believe there will be an NPC-only epic destiny in the FR material called "Deus Ex Machina". "Immortality" in this destiny will consist of hanging around smoking, seeming really wise and generally making up-and-coming adventurers feel inferior and insignificant.

 

[catsclaw227]

Same with the giants. Frost and Fire giants have a history, a theme and a point. A death giant is just a big guy with a bunch of random necromantic abilities that have nothing at all to do with being a giant. He could have been a hill giant with 15 levels of Cleric (of Nerull) and it wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference. Thats a dull monster. You could make an individual death giant interesting if you really tried, but collectively, they aren't interesting as giants.

Wait a sec... I am genuinely confused. Was there a Death Giant write-up for 4e that I missed?

 

[Intense_Interest]

I find the low strength on Giants to be interesting.

What a 21 Strength Large giant tells me that Strength is not a Linear concept- that a Small race with 18 Strength does not have the equivalent "Pulling Power" as a Large race with 18 strength.

Hopefully all the simulationist clap-trap is rolled in with the specific corner cases that they deal with (Grappling), which would also keep the Double Screwed situation of trying to grapple something large (that gets the size bonus PLUS the strength Bonus that is already given by being large).

 

[Voss]

Maybe part of the problem is a lack of anything to compare it with. Are there other Epic Destinies for a Wizard that might have more interesting abilities? Perhaps the Archmage is one of the least inspired choices, but there is a lot of goodness among other destinies.

4 1/2 more weeks and we will know the answer to this.

Again, at least for me, it isn't the abilities. Its the flavor of the 'destiny', even though they haven't detailed the others, none of them really strike me. Partly because both words irritate me, partly because its a gross misuse of the term destiny, but mostly because its a background/fluff thing thats being jammed into the mechanics for little reason and less gain.

Some of them are fates or curses. They aren't something you choose. Some are accomplishments- not something you are until after you've done it. Some, like the archmage are just a title you claim, until someone smacks you around for getting an overblown ego.
Choosing your destiny is like choosing your hair color...before you're born. Even with the weird way they are using the term destiny, its a metagame concept for a character decision, and that is, for lack of a better word, wrong.

 

[Intense_Interest]

Choosing your destiny is like choosing your hair color...before you're born. Even with the weird way they are using the term destiny, its a metagame concept for a character decision, and that is, for lack of a better word, wrong.

"Choose Your Destiny" is a tagline for the Mortal Kombat series of games. D&D has always had more to do with Mortal Kombat than any sort of Quality Literature, and complaining about the semantics here shows that you haven't accepted this.

Unless you argue that there is more to D&D than being an easy-to-run agreeable power-accruing beat-em-up.

 

[zerotkatama]

Hm. I wonder... Could you apply Metaspell to Shape Magic? Iiiinteresting if you could.

Edit: Nevermind, Shape Magic doesn't have the Arcane keyword.