Epic Greater Magic Weapon spell?

[kreynolds]

I'm not backpedaling.

?

I was, originally, ambiguous.

OK.

I never meant to imply epic enhancement bonuses to abilities should be prohibited at non-epic levels.

You did a really bad job then. You specifically stated that "Only epic-level magic can make an epic-level effect."

All I ever cared about was enhancement bonuses to weapons.

It doesn't matter what you cared about. The point is that you made a blanket statement about supposedly "epic" bonuses and non-epic spells. I set out to prevent you from spreading incorrect information on a rules board.

That's why your argument involving bite of the werebear was pointless,

Pointless? I don't think so. It proved that your blanket statement about epic level magic & effects was completely baseless.

but (on a completely unrelated note) I still argue it was a poor choice to prove your point.

Whatever. I suppose the Empowered Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, and Eagle's Splendor were also poor choices, and probably the examples provided by KaeYoss as well.

Did it?

Yes.

I understand you got confused when I dismissed bite of the werebear seemingly out-of-hand

Nope. I didn't get confused. You dismissed the spell because you were completely mistaken about what effects you can get from non-epic magic, which you illustrated by making a blanket statement. You even completely dismissed ALL of KaeYoss's examples by ignoring them. Only when I pinned you down with Empowered stat booster's did you finally explain yourself.

but if you look at my arguements before that (exactly one post) I never explicitly said stat enhancments.

I know you didn't. You did worse. You made an unedjucated blanket statement. I only used that spell to prove you wrong.

In fact, if you re-read it, I implicitly said in my original post that I was talking only about weapons and not about stats:

Then why the blanket statement? You covered everything with that.

And we know that a +6 enhancment to an ability is not epic.

Depends on what rule books you use.

Actually, no I didn't.

I don't know how you didn't. I focused my entire argument completely upon stat enhancing spells. *shrug*

I thought you were arguing that because some epic enhancement bonuses are available at non-epic levels (those to stats) then epic enhancments to weapons should automatically also be allowed.

No. I was arguing against your baseless blanket statement. That's what started all of this.

Bite of the werebear still isn't a very good spell, though.

But that's the best part...it doesn't have to be to prove my case.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

the suggestions posted here (By Cloudgatherer and others) have spellresistance: Yes (harmless)

Why would there be SR?, GMW doesn't have it.

GMW does have SR: Yes (harmless, object).

I didn't look up the errata, but I think it's still in. And I don't know many weapons who'd want to resist a spell that improves them...

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Bite of the werebear still isn't a very good spell, though.

It's no spell that you would use every time, but it does have its uses, and It's far from bad. You just have to use it in the right combination:

Caste Haste, Bite of the Wearebear, Tenser's Transformation. Then you'll have +16 Str, +2d4 Dex, +8 Con (BotW and TT both grant enhancement bonuses to the ability scores, so they won't stack), 17d6 or more THP, fighter BAB, +5 to fort saves, power attack, blind fight, multiattack, proficiency in martial weapons and +7 natural armor.
If you have a druid nearby, let him cast (greater) magic fang on you so the claws and bite are better.

This makes you a hell of a fighting machine, nearly on par with a full-fledged fighter type: You'd have 4 attacks with the paws, an "off-hand" attack as a bite and another attack because of haste, dealing 1d8+8 (if your base STR is only 10) or 2d8+4 (add +5 if you have greater magic fang on you), and could also use power attack for even more damage. That's really great if you stand against an enemy that is immune to your magic...

 

[kreynolds]

Caste Haste, Bite of the Wearebear, Tenser's Transformation. Then you'll have +16 Str, +2d4 Dex, +8 Con (BotW and TT both grant enhancement bonuses to the ability scores, so they won't stack), 17d6 or more THP, fighter BAB, +5 to fort saves, power attack, blind fight, multiattack, proficiency in martial weapons and +7 natural armor.
If you have a druid nearby, let him cast (greater) magic fang on you so the claws and bite are better.

This makes you a hell of a fighting machine, nearly on par with a full-fledged fighter type: You'd have 4 attacks with the paws, an "off-hand" attack as a bite and another attack because of haste, dealing 1d8+8 (if your base STR is only 10) or 2d8+4 (add +5 if you have greater magic fang on you), and could also use power attack for even more damage. That's really great if you stand against an enemy that is immune to your magic...

...oh...my...god...

 

[Kae'Yoss]

...oh...my...god...

Which one would that be?

 

[kreynolds]

Which one would that be?

Me, of course! Pftt!

 

[da chicken]

And we know that a +6 enhancment to an ability is not epic.

You did a really bad job then.

Isn't that what I just said? Why are you still arguing? What do you still not understand?

Whatever. I suppose the Empowered Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, and Eagle's Splendor were also poor choices, and probably the examples provided by KaeYoss as well.

I didn't read all of KaeYoss's post. The first part was talking about weapon enhancments and the second part is about HEL Pit Fiend's epic spell. I didn't think those were relevant, so I skipped most of the third part that was relevant.

Note he also stated, "Unlike with weapon bonuses, I don't mind having non-epic effects increase your ability scores by more than 6, as it is already possible." That statement is in line with my [poorly worded] argument.

Yes, [your argument against me focused on spells that grant high ability bonuses].

That was a tangent argument from the issue I thought you brought up. I apologise for it's ambiguous nature as well, if you think it is necessary.

Nope. I didn't get confused. You dismissed the spell because you were completely mistaken about what effects you can get from non-epic magic, which you illustrated by making a blanket statement. You even completely dismissed ALL of KaeYoss's examples by ignoring them. Only when I pinned you down with Empowered stat booster's did you finally explain yourself.

Because it wasn't obvious to me what you were arguing about. I (foolishly, apparently) thought that because the topic of the thread was Epic Greater Magic Weapon that it would be assumed i was talking about weapon enhancments.

I think that's a reasonable assumption, and I don't understand why you are so adamantly opposed to saying "oh, I misunderstood."

Then why the blanket statement? You covered everything with that.

Because the topic wasn't everything!!! Withing the context of the thread, it is a perfectly reasonable statement. Do I have to say we're talking about 3E D&D, too? No, that's the general topic.

I said the statement shouldn't be interpreted as a blanket statement. Why do you continue to argue that it should?

And we know that a +6 enhancment to an ability is not epic.

Depends on what rule books you use.

Huh? Belt of giant strength +6? That's core. I certainly hope you're using the core books. Shoot, even the headband of perfection (+6 Str, +6 Dex, +6 Wis) is non-epic.

I don't know how you didn't. I focused my entire argument completely upon stat enhancing spells. *shrug*

But... the topic was about weapons enhancments. Your argument was off topic.... That's why it didn't matter to my argument (or me) because your argument had nothing to do with mine.

No. I was arguing against your baseless blanket statement. That's what started all of this.

No, you misinterpreted my original post. You seem to think that is patently impossible. I agree it was poorly worded, but try to look at it from my side:

Me: +6 weapon enhancments should be kept epic.
You: But you can get epic ability enhancements non-epic.
Me: So?

But that's the best part...it doesn't have to be to prove my case.

Sure, fine, you win. You can have epic ability bonuses from non-epic spells. Too bad that isn't what I was talking about in my first post, despite the fact that I used ambiguous language.

 

[da chicken]

It's no spell that you would use every time, but it does have its uses, and It's far from bad. You just have to use it in the right combination:

Caste Haste, Bite of the Wearebear, Tenser's Transformation. Then you'll have +16 Str, +2d4 Dex, +8 Con (BotW and TT both grant enhancement bonuses to the ability scores, so they won't stack), 17d6 or more THP, fighter BAB, +5 to fort saves, power attack, blind fight, multiattack, proficiency in martial weapons and +7 natural armor.
If you have a druid nearby, let him cast (greater) magic fang on you so the claws and bite are better.

This makes you a hell of a fighting machine, nearly on par with a full-fledged fighter type: You'd have 4 attacks with the paws, an "off-hand" attack as a bite and another attack because of haste, dealing 1d8+8 (if your base STR is only 10) or 2d8+4 (add +5 if you have greater magic fang on you), and could also use power attack for even more damage. That's really great if you stand against an enemy that is immune to your magic...

That doesn't do anything to prove bite of the werebear is a good spell. It took you (by my count) 3 other spells to make it worthwhile. You can replace bite of the werebear by any number of other spells and end up with a similar or superior result: polymorph self/other, shapechange, iron body (which is a poor offensive spell also), etc. The fact that you need greater magic fang to overcome DR (which should be common at those levels) is a bad thing.

The best use of it, without a doubt, is to make an infusion of the spell (MotW) and give it to a Monk. Any other use simply wastes spell slots and time in combat when you could be doing something productive. Like time stop or gate for a wizard, or elemental swarm, shapechange or even wild shaping into an elemental yourself. Those spells are all powerful without the need for 3 other spells.

 

[Saeviomagy]

A character incapable of casting the spell which is contained in an infusion cannot use the infusion. Just so you know.

Note that bite of the werebear is not incompatable with elemental wildshape.

 

[kreynolds]

Sure, fine, you win.

But do you know why? Because you used ambiguous language, shown here...

Only epic-level magic can make an epic-level effect.

...but when I gave you an example that proved you wrong, you continued to defend your statement, albeit very weakly.

You can have epic ability bonuses from non-epic spells. Too bad that isn't what I was talking about in my first post, despite the fact that I used ambiguous language.

Then be more careful, or more clear, next time. Look, I don't hold a grudge or anything. Just don't try and blame this crap on me.