Epic Handbook just a little bit unreasonable?

[Piratecat]

S'Mon, Hong - stop the insults, please. Disagree all you want, but stop getting personal. That's not cool.

Incidentally, yes, one 20th lvl NPC has a CR of 20... meaning that they're a challenge that should be able to use of one quarter of the resources of a 4 person 20th lvl party.

 

[hong]

I'm comparing it to the baseline in every other RPG I've ever read, including the various editions of D&D/AD&D - it's much much higher than any previous game.

To my knowledge, no previous edition of D&D featured wealth tables by character level. How much an individual DM gave out was entirely up to him or her, without any guidelines in the rulebooks beyond "be reasonable" (now _there's_ some useful advice). Therefore, I can only assume this is going by your experience with your own campaign -- in which case, see above.

I'm also unsure as to whether there's any other RPGs which featured wealth tables like 3E's. Please name a few.

It seems strongly influenced by CRPGs like Diablo.

You say that like it's a negative thing.

(And I don't even like Diablo.)

 

[S'mon]

S'Mon, Hong - stop the insults, please. Disagree all you want, but stop getting personal. That's not cool.

Incidentally, yes, one 20th lvl NPC has a CR of 20... meaning that they're a challenge that should be able to use of one quarter of the resources of a 4 person 20th lvl party.

Thanks PC. Sorry about the insult, I'm not planning to reply to him further.

 

[hong]

S'Mon, Hong - stop the insults, please. Disagree all you want, but stop getting personal. That's not cool.

You are, like, such a spoilsport, ya know?

Incidentally, yes, one 20th lvl NPC has a CR of 20... meaning that they're a challenge that should be able to use of one quarter of the resources of a 4 person 20th lvl party.

I think the exact figure quoted in the DMG is 20% of the resources (so basically no-one should be _killed_ by a one encounter with EL equal to the party level).

But yes, a creature with CR X is essentially supposed to be an easy fight for a party that's level X. An "equal match", meaning a fight that the party stands a good chance of losing, would imply an EL 2-4 higher than the party level.

 

[S'mon]

I'm comparing it to the baseline in every other RPG I've ever read, including the various editions of D&D/AD&D - it's much much higher than any previous game. It seems strongly influenced by CRPGs like Diablo.

Eg compare the magic item generation tables for NPC adventurers on pg 175-176 of the 1st ed DMG with the standard NPC item allocations in 3e. Oh, and I like Diablo, I have no problem with a Diablo-based campaign setting with similar amounts of magic. Personally I want to be able to run a variety of settings with different amounts of magic (eg varying Magic Factors as per 1e Manual of the Planes) , both in-total and by-level. So Toril has more magic than Greyhawk which has more magic than Nehwon, and Mystara has lots of grand, extravagant magic (flying cities etc) but few small-but-powerful items like +5 swords.

 

[Aaron L]

. . . In four half-hour episodes. I'm sure it won't suck ass like Shin Tenchi, Daughter of Darkness or Tenchi Forever. . .

The Tenchi OAV's have 6 episodes per series, and they are 45 or so minutes long, varying a little. Like a 5 hour or so movie.

Besides, NOTHING can suck as bad as Shin Tenchi.

 

[JDeMobray]

The Tenchi OAV's have 6 episodes per series, and they are 45 or so minutes long, varying a little. Like a 5 hour or so movie.

Picky, picky, picky.

Besides, NOTHING can suck as bad as Shin Tenchi.

I don't know, I think Tenchi Forever was slightly worse if only because it wasn't even about Tenchi!!

Oh right, topic. Um. . .

I have only twice even played a character of above level 20. Both times back in 1st Edition. In my long running 2nd edition campaign, we have the PO: High-Levl Campaigns book available but have never used it. I have an occasional NPC who is above level 20.

In my campaigns, and from my experience, I find 20 levels to be more than enough for actual physical and magical powered ass-kicking. My NPCs and the PCs in my games tend to gain power in other less easily quantifiable ways. Contacts, Influence, political whatnot.

That said, I will probably at least look at the ELH, if only because there are the rare characters in my games (Aarthos the Ravager, for instance) who could be more easily created "on-theme" using those sorts of abilities.

 

[Victim]

Compared to the money and magic items in 2e adventures, the 3e guidelines seem kind of stingy. For example, Night Below hands out millions of GP alone, plus something like a +3 bane intelligent longsword to be found at around 8th to 9th level.

In my own experience, 3e tends to give out many fewer magical items at low levels. By thrid level in 3e, a fighter can afford some masterwork weapons and full plate, while in 2e it wouldn't be unreasonable for him to have equivalent normal gear (platemail is about the same as full plate, except that 17 dex characters would wear platemail), but also have some kind of +1 weapon, even if it was a dagger.

Also, in 2e edition, some items would be rather odd. For example, Girdles of Giant Strength could be worth it's weight in diamonds or only moderately useful. In any case, it was a sick item, usually more valuable than the 3e ones, but it would still be found at varying levels.

Even if the recommended wealth doesn't completely balance classes, it still helps. While a 20th cleric probably has an edge on a 20th level fighter, that cleric would crush the fighter if they each had 5k of stuff instead of 760k. A few all day spells later, and the cleric has +5 weapons and armor, along with CON and STR boosts to make up for stat arrangement.

I like the 3e guidelines because they create a smoother power curve between levels, tend to make classes more equal, and give DMs some guidelines on treasure.

 

[Creamsteak]

Man, I'm dying for that book!

As a DM, well, your NPCs can never be too powerful. I want god-like beings who can reduce cities to ash, raise entire nations from the dead to fight for them, change the landscape of the world with a wave of their hand.

Or, I should say, I've already got half-a-dozen of those in my campaign and have got no real way to justify what they're capable of rules-wise.

Which is no problem for me, really, but one of the ideas is that the characters eventually acquire this sort of power themselves. One of the central themes of the campaign is the "corruption" of power -- that those who possess extreme power will always be viewed as horrors by those who don't, regardless of what their actual intentions might be. And that in fact they WILL be horrors from some points of view.

My party is already proven to be capable of some pretty unpleasant things without thinking of the consequences. I don't even think they realise some of the things they've done in their quest to stay alive. Heh, heh, heh...

You should join in the IR... we are looking for more players. Go to the Bits and Pieces forum and then go to the In character part. You should be able to see the newest IR thread.