Epic Handbook just a little bit unreasonable?

[Humanophile]

To everyone calling the ELH "Munchkin"...

Munchkin is "I just rolled up this character at home, he has two 18's". I fail to see a difference between "Nice work Presto, that sleep spell took out those orc raiders for us" and "Nice work Presto, that barrage of time stopped sonic-substituted meteor swarms took out those great wyrm red dragons for us". I mean one is a lot more over the top than the other, but isn't epic supposed to mean over the top. If you don't like that style of play, what are your levels doing in the upper teens anyways?

I'm not too keen on epic games because I have seen more than my share of munchkins abuse the higher reaches of the D&D power spectrum, and I do see a spate of munchkinny players want to run epic level games when the book comes out so they can revel in their powers, but that group will lost interest when they find annihilating kings to be not much more fun than it was with those 20'th level characters they rolled up when 3e came out, and that taking out pit fiends at 21st level isn't that much different than taking out ogres at 6th. It's just more work, which some of them will like, but which I guess most of them would prefer not to have to think so hard about.

My guess, however, is that this book will be most used by legacy players who don't want to give up on characters just because they hit 20th level, and by people who want to play balanced games but still believe that you're not a hero if you can't do seven impossible things before breakfast. The first bunch I'd hesitate to call munchkinny because munchkins tend not to work well with others and have short attention spans, and the second bunch I'd hesitate to call munchkinny because they're actually looking for pointers on balanced gameplay, adversaries, and scenarios to face their over the top PC's.

 

[William Ronald]

I think we should give the ELH a chance.

ColonelHardisson, I agree with your opinions. I think Cuchulain could dive up water falls and do any number of weird things. (It does help to be an epic level hero and the son of a god.)

I attended the ELH seminar at GenCon. Andy Collins said that the book would let a DM have different styles of play - everything from Le Morte D'Arthur and mythic style play to anime style. I like having options.

 

[estevans_lackey]

I guess it's all a matter of taste. I agree with the silly-sounding stuff. A couple of sayings, however, come to mind when reading this thread like "never say never" and "don't knock it 'til you try it".

 

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Excellent Humanophile! I should think I and my players would fit somewhat into both of your latter two categories. A mix of both, if you will. I think that is what the ELH should be able to do. I suppose then again, I just don't get the whole concern over "Munchkins." I don't DM in a munchkin style, per se, and I don't think I have any "Munchkin" players. I guess I just don't get it.

Perhaps I've been playing too long from back in the day, or maybe it's a regional thing. I'm not even sure I can define what a "Munchkin" player is. Where I'm from, we usually had the following:

(1) Rules Lawyers

(2) Power-Gamers/Hack & Slashers

(3) Role-Players/Social Gamers

That's just a rough guess. There are so many people that seem so worried about "Munchkins." If those kind of players are a problem, then don't play with them.

As far as power-level goes, both as a DM, and as a player, should characters reach the 20+ level in ability, why *shouldn't* they be super-powerful? I mean, depending on how often you play, when you reach 18th-20th level, how would you feel if the best thing you had was a +3 sword? Don't get me wrong, I like realism, and historical analogical plausibility, but there are spells, magic-items, and powers within the damn rules. If you, as a player, and or DM, never get to "play" with such things, then, what's the point? I mean, aren't you somewhat letting part of what the game is designed to accomodate sort of "go to waste"? As one player of mine said,

"hey, I'm not playing D&D so I can relive the day to day experience of a medieval peasant! Screw that. The game is designed to offer heroic challenges, and heroic characters that can whip it on, you know?"

I suppose as the DM, I have to respect that. It's why I think most everyone plays D&D, you know?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[I'm A Banana]

A "Muchkin" is not a powerful character. A munchkin isn't a character with two 18's or one who casts sleep. A muchkin isn't a character who uses the rules to achieve a desired end.


A munchkin is someone who diliberately tries to exceed the power level of the game, to be unbeatable, to be able to defeat anything. It is someone who will stock up on disadvantages just to be able to dual-wield scimitars at 1st level with enough feats to grant them the highest possible attack bonus. It is someone who looks for ways to exceed the power of the system. It's the kind of player who ruins the fun of others by making himself powerful. He doesn't get challenged, because his fun is in designing a character that isn't challenged. The type of person who'll spend hours hacking critters in her electronic RPG just to be able to get to 99th level and trounce anything the game throws at her.

This is how munchkin is deragatory and dismissive. It's an undesirable trait in a gamer, because most players like to design characters based on how they fit the concept of their character, and when someone chooses abilities that compliment each other without any rhyme or reason other than to become powerful, *that* is munchkinism.

How is the ELH munchkinism, pray tell? Sure, it exceeds the power level of standard D&D, but it doesn't compile nonsensical bonuses and qualities that create a truly unbeatable character. Epic level characters can be challenged and beaten, as evidenced by epic level monsters, as evidenced by epic-level NPC's.

What's munchkin about swimming up a waterfall?

Powerful? Yeah. Munchkin? No. That's not exceeding the established baseline, when the baseline is powerful as it is. That's not over-bonusing a character because it needs to be unbeatable by a waterfall. That's showing a character who is a REALLY good swimmer.

Oh, and to echo some sentiments that have already been established: Don't rain on anybody else's parade. No one is making you use the ELH.

Sorry if this sounds a bit snippy, but this is reaching a level that's kinda irking me. It's one thing to not want to play a high-level campaign. Sure. Fine. It's quite another to assume that only inferior "munchkins" would want to play a high-level campaign, and that there's something wrong with that. That's offensive.

 

[the Jester]

I don't see why Wizards and Sorcerors shouldn't outstrip other PC's at very high level. It was that way in 1e and that was never a problem. I can see adding new feats to the list and making new spells up. But I don't know if I'll like these rules. Of course I reserve the right to pass judgement when it's actually put out. With my luck it will have nothing that interests me other than stats for the demon & devil lords.

Well, but keep in mind that a 15th level wizard in 1e needed 375,000 xp to go up a level vs. 220,000 xp for a 15th-level rogue. And by the time the wizard was 15th the rogue was probably about 18th.

Nowadays, everyone uses the same xp chart, and the whole idea behind that is that all the classes (with the possible exception of prestige classes) are roughly equivelent at the same level. A 15th-level wizard is a much better spellcaster than a 15th-level bard, but the bard should be much better than the wizard in some other ways (basically social abilities in this example.)

Forward not back!

 

[Volaran]

I'd like to quickly put my two cents in one the term "Munchkin".

Whatever munchkin was once used to refer to, it has now degenerated into "anything in a game that I happen to disagree with or dislike".

There are many gaming styles that I dislike greatly, but I do not consider them wrong or "munchkin". These include certain types of epic level play. I still intend to buy this book and agree with many of the planned uses for it that people have mentioned on this thread.

 

[S'mon]

And level 20th+ doesn't necessarily mean Norse or Greek or Hindu heroes. Have any of you seen any anime series like Slayers? How do you handle someone like Lina Inverse who can shoot off a nuclear explosion pretty much at whim? It's not that the characters in Slayers are god-like. Not at all. Rather, it's just loose, high-powered entertainment where the characters are nearly the best at what they do, so their villains are equally powerful if not moreso.

A lot of anime characters would be epic-level, but I bet that if you're watching the anime you wouldn't say, "That's so munchkin." Rather, you'd be enjoying the fun, and liking the fact that though they're really powerful, they can still have foes, can still have emotional development and conflict.

A lot of anime is munchkin, the protagonists are impossibly better than everyone else and get to do whatever they want without any consequences - Legend of the Five Kings, Gundam Wing, etc. It's almost a defining point of the genre. I don't like this stuff, I'd rather have D&D rules that modelled closer to Norse mythology, say.

 

[S'mon]

defining munchkinism

IMO Munchkinism is the players-led equivalent of GM-led Monty-Haulism.

In Monty Haul games the GM gives away artifacts etc with minimal opposition to the PCs. The game is too easy, the PCs aren't challenged.

Munchkinism is the player-led' attempt to do the same - have PCs bedecked with magic, impossible stats etc so they can easily beat any foes and aren't challenged.

Clearly not all epic-level games are Monty Haul or munchkin. The important thing is to maintain the element of risk at all levels.

Spotting munchkins: Munchkin players complain when their 20th level PC 'only' has a +3 sword. IMO good players shouldn't have a problem with this.

 

[hong]

Munchkinism is like pornography: I can't say what it is, but I know it when I see it.

The munchkin that can be named is not a true munchkin.

Inside the most fervent real roleplayer is an inner munchkin begging to be released.

Munchkining is not munchkining unless done for its own sake.

In the new world order, there will be no place for rogue munchkins.

It's munchkins all the way down.