Epic Handbook just a little bit unreasonable?

[Wolfspider]

Indeed - after playing through 20 levels you should hopefully have realised that the game was 'magic light' (compared to the incredibly magic-heavy 3e baseline, that is). There's nothing outrageous about my suggestion - in OD&D 'Dawn of the Emperors' by the great Aaron Allston, Emperor Thincol of Thyatis, 36th level Fighter, had nothing above +2 - in my game he eventually gained a +4 sword after killing the evil god Thanatos in battle.

One problem: OD&D is not the same game as D&D3E. So your suggestion that a 20th level character is a munchkin if the player complains about having only a +3 sword IS rather outrageous.

20th level characters in a typical D&D3E should have the best magical equipment the Core Rulebooks offer. The CR ratings given to monsters assumes that they have the full alotment of magical items that their level indicates. To deny characters this amount is to set them up for a big fall, unless the DM has modified the game somehow to make their survivability more likely.

 

[S'mon]

Doh! foiled again, still only have 600 gp after paying for the last powerful magic sword. I t wasn't cheap especially since one of the other players died getting one of the exotic componants needed.


Note to self: Explain to DM, my character should have more than 600 gp.

You're the kind of player I like.

Strangely, I used to think I was pretty lenient/generous with magic items, running 1e/2e AD&D - then 3e came out and suddenly 20th level PCs are supposed to have their free choice of 760,000 gp worth of kit, while the market prices are almost all extremely low, so suddenly I'm the mean GM, not giving PCs their 'rightful' magic allowance... *sigh*

 

[Wolfspider]

so suddenly I'm the mean GM, not giving PCs their 'rightful' magic allowance... *sigh*

Watch the people in your group who play fighters really whine when their 20th level gods of war run up against a nasty monster with Damage Reduction and find that their magnificent +3 weapons can't hurt them.

 

[S'mon]

One problem: OD&D is not the same game as D&D3E. So your suggestion that a 20th level character is a munchkin if the player complains about having only a +3 sword IS rather outrageous.

20th level characters in a typical D&D3E should have the best magical equipment the Core Rulebooks offer. The CR ratings given to monsters assumes that they have the full alotment of magical items that their level indicates. To deny characters this amount is to set them up for a big fall, unless the DM has modified the game somehow to make their survivability more likely.

By raising the CRs? Yeah, I do that, since CRs often seem to have little rhyme or reason (the old 1e XP system was far superior in this respect). I use the NPC Fighter in the DMG as the baseline - if a monster is clearly more powerful than him I raise the CR accordingly.

There's one way the CR system breaks down - a 20th level NPC is supposed to be an equal match for a 20th level PC, yet the NPC gets far less magic?! I'm certainly not going to let a PC start with more gp oif magic than the standard elite NPC of that level, that's still plenty of kit. Depending on the world I'd also limit the maximum value of items, eg to +2 or +3.

 

[Wolfspider]

There's one way the CR system breaks down - a 20th level NPC is supposed to be an equal match for a 20th level PC, yet the NPC gets far less magic?!

Where did you read this? The CR system as I understand it isn't based on one-on-one fights at all....

 

[hong]

Strangely, I used to think I was pretty lenient/generous with magic items, running 1e/2e AD&D - then 3e came out and suddenly 20th level PCs are supposed to have their free choice of 760,000 gp worth of kit, while the market prices are almost all extremely low, so suddenly I'm the mean GM, not giving PCs their 'rightful' magic allowance... *sigh*

The wealth guidelines in the DMG exist basically for two reasons:
1) to give characters the ability to go up against monsters with high CRs; and 2) to equalise power levels between classes with supernatural abilities and those without. A 20th level fighter without magical equipment is puny compared to a 20th level wizard, or even a 20th level monk.

Also, rule 0 still exists, as it's always existed. The DM still has free rein to impose restrictions on what equipment a character can get, and the DMG in fact points this out explicitly.

This sort of whinging along the lines of "3E hands out items like it's Christmas" has been heard since the PHB came out. It's very old, very boring, and quite irrelevant.

 

[S'mon]

Watch the people in your group who play fighters really whine when their 20th level gods of war run up against a nasty monster with Damage Reduction and find that their magnificent +3 weapons can't hurt them.

It's true that this hasn't happened yet, but eg pit fiends are only DR 25/+2, so I don't see it as a major problem. An anti-magic shell will eliminate magical DR in my game anyway.

 

[hong]

a 20th level NPC is supposed to be an equal match for a 20th level PC

Chapter and verse, please.

 

[S'mon]

Where did you read this? The CR system as I understand it isn't based on one-on-one fights at all....

*sigh* - Well, would you accept that FOUR NPCs are supposed to be an equal match for four PCs of the same level?

 

[hong]

It's true that this hasn't happened yet, but eg pit fiends are only DR 25/+2, so I don't see it as a major problem. An anti-magic shell will eliminate magical DR in my game anyway.

Pit fiends have DR 30/+3 according to the hot-off-the-press MM errata; furthermore, stoneskin, which is a mere 4th level spell, grants DR 10/+5.

Antimagic fields eliminate DR in every game, not just yours, because DR (with a few exceptions) is a supernatural ability.