Epic Level Character Class Thoughts

[Upper_Krust]

Hi there!

In general, my biggest complaints with the ELH is the Epic Spell system and Epic Item Creation.

I am curious what you didn't like about these? (I thought the Epic Spell system was the best part of the book)

 

[wolff96]

Sorcerer/Wizard - Going to have to disagree here as well. A couple feat choices really screw item creation (Efficient Item Creation should apply to all items, IMO), but the spellcasting power available can be obscene.

Efficient Item Creation is rather potent -- I like it being split up. But that's a minor thing.

The Automatic xxxx Feats are very, very nice. But even with Automatic Quicken Spell and the feat that allows extra quickened spells per round, you're only depleting your resources that much faster.

The real reason I think there is a problem is SR and saves. Saving throws -- from level, items, and magic -- go up much, much faster than the equivalent Spell DCs. Spell Resistance is even worse; many of the creatures in the ELH have insane spell resistance. The worst offenders are the high HD Psuedonatural critters -- they have HD x 5 Spell Resistance! And their CR isn't even that high.

Worse still, the wizard/sorcerer only has a certain number of spells per day. Even if they have the resources to cast the big epic spells, those spells generally allow saving throws. The problem is one of scale. A 25th level with a Horrid Wilting does (on average) 112.5 damage when the save is made. That kind of damage is pretty big against a lot of creatures. Against the creatures that a 25th level character is likely to fight, however, it's a drop in the HP bucket. The problem is worse at higher levels: the creatures are more likely to save and have even more ridiculous HP totals.

It's not epic spellcasting per se that bothers me; its the loss of relative efficiency that the wizard and sorcerer are suffering. And I specifically single out wizards and sorcerers because clerics, druids, and all the secondary spellcasters have other tricks to fall back on.

 

[Johno]

I have many "bones of contention" with the ELH.

Clerics gain bonus feats every third level, while Druids are relegated to every fourth.

THe Fighters gain bonus feats every second level, quickly eclipsing the Barbarian, in his forté (raging, DR), if the fighter so chooses.

The slower gain in bonus feats is supposed to be weighed up by the ever-increasing number of wild-shaping/day or rages/day respectively? Hardly. How many times is the per day limit of these abilities going to affect play at the epic level? Especially as there are NON-Epic feats allowing the character to increase the times/day of these abilities.

The ill-thought non-epic +30 skill item cap. (too high, but that little discussion was elsewhere)

This goes hand in hand with the huge jump in costs for Epic items. It would have been better to have thought out a proper system to "smooth the curve" from the beginning. (bonus)^3*1000gp, for instance.

The Epic Spell Casting; too loose, and arbitrary, especially considering the amount of errata needed to get this section off the ground.

Many Epic feats not requiring what should be obvious prerequisite feats.
For instance: Epic Skill Focus should require Skill Focus as a prerequisite.

The total lack of focus, proof reading or any intelligent thought behind the Psionics included in the book. They could have been just as easily left out and included in a Dragon magizine, or on the website.

The lack of imagination when it comes to the magic items presented. Basically there is nothing really new or fresh there, at all.

IMO, the ELH was the weakest of the hardbound 3e books released by WoTC to date. DDG may recieve less use, but that is hardly the fault of the book itself.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Some responses to your concerns, wolff:

First, arcane spellcasters shouldn't be throwing around damage-dealing spells at epic levels unless they really mean it. Save-or-die spells are a much better way to go. Of course, with Improved Metamagic available to casters at epic levels, you'll start seeing lots of multiply-Empowered blasting spells, which do quite substantial damage.

Second, it is by no means certain that saves and SR increase faster than spell DCs and caster level, depending on what set of rules you use. If you use the core books only, then expect spellcasters to get their hands on the best stat-boosting items they can find, thereby boosting average spell DCs by 3-5. If you use the splatbooks, expect castings of empowered fox's cunning or similar spells, raising DCs by a similar amount. I expect that a spellcaster's DCs should average 23 + spell level by the time s/he reaches epic levels, using only the core rules. Your average CR 21 monster (the thorciasid, for example), will have at least one save that makes it susceptible to the higher-level spells thrown by that caster.

If you use FR save-DC-boosting classes or Greater/Epic Spell Focus feats, the numbers change dramatically in favor of the wizard. It's pretty easy to get DCs of 28 + spell level for the caster's preferred spells, and that will beat most saves for monsters of the appropriate CR.

The same for SR, which incidentally follows a pretty strict pattern of 10-12 + CR for epic monsters (the pseudonatural template is a unique exception, and after all the fighters have to have SOMETHING to do). That means that a spellcaster has a 50/50 chance of getting any individual spell through. Couple with the Spell Penetration feat, and you get a 60/40 chance. Use GSP, and that goes up to 70/30.

All this, of course, assumes that the wizard doesn't just cast buffing spells, maze, time stop, and other dweomers that require neither saves nor SR. They have a HUGE selection of these at epic levels.

As for AQS and Multispell causing casters to burn resources faster: At these levels, that's pretty irrelevant. A wizard just needs to last one combat; after that, he can teleport back to his stronghold (or better still, to a plane with fast-flowing time) and prepare spells again.

I speak from some experience; the wizard in the epic party I DM is constantly in danger of overshadowing his fellow party members, even though they are one and three levels higher than he, respectively.

 

[wolff96]

Clerics gain bonus feats every third level, while Druids are relegated to every fourth.

Actually, I thought about this and then disregarded it. For one thing, druids are more focused in Epic Feats than the clerics. Druids essentially have Spellcasting and Wildshaping. Clerics maintain spellcasting and turning related feats, but are more likely (IMO) to worry about fighting related feats.

Besides -- Wildshaping feats make the druid a powerhouse if he decides to go that route. I've said it before, I'll say it again: A collosal gold dragon with druidic spellcasting is just plain NASTY.

Originally posted by ruleslawyer
Save-or-die spells are a much better way to go.

Which emphasize the power of saving throws, too. I'd actually rather throw a spell like a fireball and just accept that I'll only do half damage than take the chance of doing absolutely nothing. YMMV.

Whether you use Save-or-die spells, the feats and powers available to raise spell DCs peter out once you get a bit deeper into the epic levels. I agree completely with your analysis of around 28 + Spell Level for high magic campaigns.

But where do you go from there? Once you have epic spell focus, an x-times-empowered spell to boost your attribute, and whatever wishes and tomes you've used, what next? The answer is that there is nothing else you can do. You can keep dumping points into Intelligence, which will slowly raise your DCs... and that's about it.

Meanwhile, a monk (worst-case example) keeps going up in his saves by level ad infinitum. He can also take feats to improve his SR and Energy resistance. Unless your wizard is involved in an arms race where he takes nothing but Improved Spell Capacity (I think that's the right name -- the one that gives a higher level spell slot) to keep further empowering his stat boosters, he can't do much. And even that solution burns off all of his epic feats, disallowing all the other cool options.

Maze is a nice solution. So are the other No Save, No SR spells. But most of them only delay the problem... Even Time Stop won't help you if you can't damage the creature with magic.

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Maybe I'm borrowing trouble here. It sounds like your campaign doesn't have this problem. But reading the rules and projecting ahead, I just don't see a way for a wizard to keep up with saves and SR over the long-haul. (Though SR isn't as much of a problem as saving throws.)

 

[jasamcarl]

Not exactly true. DCs can continue to rise on a 1/2 level or 1/1 basis because of the Intelligence boosting feat (can't recall the name). I assume you missed that.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Whether you use Save-or-die spells, the feats and powers available to raise spell DCs peter out once you get a bit deeper into the epic levels. I agree completely with your analysis of around 28 + Spell Level for high magic campaigns.

But where do you go from there? Once you have epic spell focus, an x-times-empowered spell to boost your attribute, and whatever wishes and tomes you've used, what next? The answer is that there is nothing else you can do. You can keep dumping points into Intelligence, which will slowly raise your DCs... and that's about it.

Meanwhile, a monk (worst-case example) keeps going up in his saves by level ad infinitum. He can also take feats to improve his SR and Energy resistance.

Hmm; it seems that we have a similar understanding of the issues involved, but maybe just differ regarding the ultimate impact of those issues, which is fine. As you said, YMMV...

Well, attribute boosts DO equate to DC increases, and I actually think the potential for greater and greater attribute boosts (through more-empowered stat boost spells, better items, and wishes) goes UP, not down, as characters increase in level.

Also, a monk's saves are only going up by 1 point every two levels across the board. A spellcaster can probably keep reasonable pace with this increase on a level-by-level basis.

Finally, I think that spellcasters just have to work smarter, not harder, to take down the opposition at epic levels. The fact is, EVERY class has to do this. Fighters actually face the toughest strategic dilemma, since they are going to have a hard time even acting at all in combat, much less reaching the opposition in time to deliver a successful attack.

What casters can do is to target weak saves, use no-save spells whenever possible, and boost their casting attributes through the roof; pretty much what they've been doing at non-epic levels. Give that monk a meteor swarm followed up by a power word kill and see how he likes this. Maze that advancing legendary dreadnought. Atropals and demiliches? Those are for your blinding-speeded charging tank fighter buddy protected by an anti-magic field.

Wizards' and sorcs' big advantage at epic levels is that they can buff their buddies with the lower-level spells and nastify the opposition in hundreds of creative ways with the high-level spells. To be honest, I think that using the FR rules is a nice way of allowing wizards to make the choice of specializing as save-DC monkeys, but they don't really need to, and can function just fine using the core rules.

In any case, wolff, I certainly agree with you that druids are THE big winners at epic levels. Mighty mighty mighty.

 

[MensurB]

druids-wildshape

If you look in the book called dragoon or something like that there is a sorcerer(yes sorcerer only spell) called "Become Dragon". It let's you transform into a dragon of your HD for 10min/level. I'm pretty sure that there are some feats that can boost that, like bloodburn from spells and spellcraft.

 

[Squire James]

I think Rogues need some epic feats to bypass sneak attack immunities. Something like:

Favored Sneak Attack: Choose one of your Favored Enemies. Such creatures have no inborn immunity to your sneak attacks, even if it is immune to critical hits (such creatures are still immune to your critical hits). Requires: Favored Enemy, Sneak Attack +8d6. Note: this feat can be taken multiple times for different favored enemies.

Unfortification: Armor, shields, and other items with the Fortification ability only have half normal chances of protecting their users from your sneak attacks and critical hits. Requires: Power Attack, Sunder, Sneak Attack +10d6.

Do the requirements seem okay? Obviously, the Favored Sneak Attack requires Ranger/Rogues, and Unfortify favors "thug" types. Should they be higher, so the Rogue would need to be in the mid-20's to get them?

 

[otto]

As for AQS and Multispell causing casters to burn resources faster: At these levels, that's pretty irrelevant. A wizard just needs to last one combat; after that, he can teleport back to his stronghold (or better still, to a plane with fast-flowing time) and prepare spells again.

Hear, hear!

Or better yet, metamagic Time Stop with persistaint and get your rest mid combat.