Epic Level Encounter Design

[keterys]

I've been dying to play this at high paragon or epic for YEARS now. If only I could find that game...

One of my friends plays one - it's tough on the DM cause he feels like has to nearly crit to hit the swordmage, drops over 20 damage if he attacks anyone else... if he doesn't get sigil of safety-ed, dimensionally vortexed, tranposing lunged. And even when he includes the swordmage in a burst, he has armor of aegis expansion to reduce it by 21 to the entire group. Plus insubstantial for key allies for a round every encounter. Reaper's Challenge for a key feat. Etc.

DM crit the party cleric for 74 and had it reduced to 6 or 7 damage last weekend.

 

[Ferghis]

DM crit the party cleric for 74 and had it reduced to 6 or 7 damage last weekend.

OUCH!

I imagine the shielding aegis reduced it by 22 (15+Con Mod), +5 for Greater Aegis of Shielding, and weakening due to Reaper's Challenge (the wording of this power makes it apply to the triggering attack's damage roll, I think). So that's (74/2)-27=37-27=10 damage. Talk about turning the attacker's weapon into a pillow.

 

[Joshua Randall]

You simply cannot rely upon monster damage output to threaten an epic party. The monsters might not be able to hit or might have their damage reduced to a piddly amount.

That's why Sly Flourish's book (among others) recommends high amounts of environmental damage, stuff like 30-50 damage every round.

Of course, this has the downside of putting the PCs on the clock, which encourages them to go even more all-in on the "kill monsters as fast as possible" style of play. *sigh*

 

[keterys]

Yep - if you force the PCs to solve all encounters in 2 rounds, they'll do it, but the answer is _always_ going to be damage damage damage unless you give them alternate win conditions.

So if you want to have strikers who kill 2 standards or an elite in round 1 of every encounter and solo in round 1 once or twice a day, you can have them. But then you hedge out every other role except leader as viable. Maybe a couple others whose off-role was striker who can hang in that league, like brutal barrage battleminds. And most of the classes, too, regardless of role, since not every class can hang out in that hang at all. You're a sentinel druid, warpriest before 27th level, or shaman? Go home. Warchanters, Warlords, artificers, sure. Vampire, blackguard, monk? Can you find a ranger or barbarian on your way out?

 

[keterys]

Fwiw, since the damage errata I actually tend to not have any trouble damaging PCs, though killing them is a different thing. But a mix of crits of 18-20, half damage on miss, auras, etc all add up.

The real trick is that some groups can be _hyper_ defensive. Epic (Fort/Ref/Will) stack with Superior (Fort/Ref/Will) sadly, throwing defense math off quite a bit, especially if you then add items for extra +2s and +3s. A group might also have 1 or 2 uses of mantle of unity (tieflings have some silly feats), as well as group-wide +stat to defense buffs (for example, a L27 cleric power gives the entire group a charge or basic, and +Con to all defenses). Which in turn means you basically can't hit them at all for 1-2 rounds, which is usually long enough to clean up.

One good option there is to run combats back to back, or have monsters simply leave when mantle is used

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Environmental damage can also be seen as 'cheap', I prefer damage that comes from character choices.

I am running the WoBS in epic level and posted This thread to discuss how it was going. I posted in the EnPublishing forum primarily due to looking for campaign specific feedback.

The part that applies most to here is this:
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Each adventuring day generally consists of a three phase encounter
o Plan and research the target {skill challenge or brainstorm session. Fail/success impacts the next}
o Get to the target {usually skill challenge that burns resources, fail/success impacts next}
o Fight the target

Make it matter. Use skill challenges or gloss over things meant to wear down the parties resources. 'Lethal Obsidian' is useful here in burning healing surges and daily resources with player involvement.

Make it Big. This is Epic level play and the PCs should be able to nova in the main encounter. Of course this means that the NPCs should get to nova as well.

Never Nerf without obvious, and massive in-game reason/plausibility.
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I have used alternate damage approaches, such as forcing death saves, sucking healing surges, etc.. but I am trying for building encounters where choices matter. I know they will be able to defeat the enemy, but will they be able to do it in time? The next encounter I have planned {regretfully for after christmas due to holiday schedules} provides the group with a number of options for resolving it. Destroy a portal that funnels energy into the room, disrupt the ritual casters that are using that energy, destroy the ritual foci, or take on the BBEG. Each option has its downsides.
- destroy the portal and the ritual casters can turn into full combatants.
- Destroy the foci and the casters have lots of power to use against the party
- destroy the casters and the big boss can use the power and the foci against the group

Destroying the boss is the shortest path to victory, and the hardest challenge