Epic Magic Big Thread

[Eridanis]

Admittedly, I was pretty brain-dead last night on the train, but I didn't glom on to anything that Chiero hasn't already noted.

I'll look at the factors tonight.

Sep, are you eyeballing these numbers and using your best judgment, or have you playtested epic games?

Oh. Oh my. Run, do not walk, to this Story Hour: Tales Of Wyre. The thread linked to is maintained by Chiero, so you don't have to read through years of disparate threads to get the fulfilling goodness that is Sepulcrave's group at play. Enjoy!

 

[Cheiromancer]

The Animate dead seed is a pain in the neck. The uneasy relationship between CR and HD, and the inapplicability of using sums of either HD or CR to determine the challenge of groups of undead... I finally decided to invoke my CHI/RHO formula, even though it sounds like a recitation of the Pythagorean Theorem. I changed the Spellcraft Prerequisite to the average of Animate Dead and Create Undead. Numerically it fits better. I also dropped the flexibility factor requirement and rolled the CR and HD stipulations together for the more advanced undead:

Seed: Animate Dead
Necromancy [Evil]

Root Spell: Animate dead, create undead
Spellcraft Prerequisite: 20+
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: One or more corpses touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

The caster can turn the bones or bodies of dead creatures into undead skeletons or zombies that follow his or her spoken commands, or alternatively create more powerful undead which he or she must control through some other means. A destroyed undead can’t be animated again.

At a base Spellcraft Prerequisite of 20, the caster can use the animate dead seed to create undead:

• Up to 40 HD of skeletons and/or zombies may be created. The undead can follow the caster, or they can remain in an Area and attack any creature (or a specific type of creature) entering the place. The undead remain animated until they are destroyed, and remain under the caster’s control indefinitely.
  Factors: For each additional 2 HD of undead created, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +1.
• Control: A caster can naturally control 4 HD per caster level of mindless undead creatures he or she has personally created, regardless of the method used. If the caster exceeds this natural limit, newly created creatures fall under his or her control, and excess undead from previous castings become uncontrolled (the caster chooses which creatures are released). If the caster is a cleric, any undead he or she commands through his or her ability to command or rebuke undead do not count toward the natural limit.
  Factor: For every 4 HD of skeletons or zombies that will not count towards the natural limit, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +1. These undead will be automatically controlled.
• The caster can also create undead other than skeletons and zombies, including intelligent undead and undead with templates: a templated undead is built upon the race, class, hit dice and abilities which the target creature or character possessed in life. Intelligent undead can follow more sophisticated commands and have a base attitude of indifferent, but are not automatically under the control of the caster. The caster may create any single undead with a CR less than or equal to half the caster level. This has a Spellcraft Prerequisite of 20, or twice the CR of the undead created, whichever is higher.
• Multiple undead of the same type can be created as long as the highest CR undead is less than or equal to half the caster level, and the sum of the squares of the CRs of the undead creatures is less than or equal to one quarter the square of the Spellcraft Prerequisite. If the sum of the squares of the CRs is too high, the highest CR subject or subjects are not affected.

Example: A 29th level necromancer decides to animate a party of low level human adventurers as vampires using his Undead Horde spell. This spell includes an Animate Dead seed Spellcraft Prerequisite raised to 32. The CR of each adventurer is given by their character level, which for this party was 5, 5, 6 and 7. The vampire template adds +2 CR, so the CRs of the resulting monsters would be 7, 8, 8 and 9. 9 is less than half the necromancer’s caster level. The sum of the squares of the CRs is 49 + 64 + 64 + 81 = 258, which is more than 256, one quarter of the square of the Spellcraft prerequisite. The three lowest level characters rise as vampires.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Incidentally, I think the standard rules favor making skeletons rather than zombies. Perhaps a "Zombie Master" feat needs to be designed. Someone with the feat treats zombies as half their actual HD for the purpose of animating and controlling them.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Re: Animate Dead

I've tried to avoid complex math (I know this isn't 4-D calculus, but you know what I mean) and I've purposely excluded any caster-level dependent restrictions within the seed descriptions - I think the latter breaks the spirit of epic spells, because they scale by factors not the actual caster level of the caster: Incidentally, I almost gave in with the fortify seed (making the anibuff derived application limited by caster level), but eventually decided to drop the ability to buff Int/Wis/Cha altogether: whatever you do with this one, it's breakable.

If we look at the spells create undead and create greater undead to see what they're capable of:

Create Undead (Hypothetical Spellcraft Prerequisite 22)

Ghoul (CR 1; 2HD)
Ghast (CR 3; 4HD)
Mummy (CR 5; 8HD)
Mohrg (CR 8; 14HD)

Create Greater Undead (Hypothetical Spellcraft Prerequisite 26)

Shadow (CR 3; 3HD) [Incorporeal]
Wraith (CR 5; 5HD) [Incorporeal]
Spectre (CR 7; 7HD) [Incorporeal]
Devourer (CR11; 12 HD) [Extraplanar]

At this stage, I'm actually inclined to drop any references to HD and drop the extraplanar & incorporeal references, and go solely with CR - although I'd up it to CR 12 (12 is a nicer number than 11, somehow), basing it off of create greater undead alone. Although it's unsatisfactory, reigning it in to one target might be the only way to go.

i.e.

• At a base Spellcraft Prerequisite of 26, the caster may create any single intelligent undead of up to CR 12. The undead to be created need not be specified in the development process. For each additional +1 CR of a created intelligent undead, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +2. A spell developed using this application of the animate dead seed can create templated undead (such as vampires or ghosts), provided that the CR of the templated undead falls within the spell's CR limit.

The alternative would be "For each additional +1 CR of a created undead, or for each additional +1 CR of additional created undead, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +2." This brings the seed into resonance with summon (which may not be a good thing) in terms of its mechanics. It's kind of screwy, because it would cost as much to create 2 devourers (Spellcraft +22) as it would to create a lava wight (also Spellcraft +22).

Then again, it's a lot more dangerous to the caster to create a lava wight. I dunno. I'm stumped.

 

[Someone]

Maybe an additional provision: for each +2 to the Spellcraft prerequisite, you multiply the number of undead created by 2., satckable. This is similar to how EL calculations work and allows the caster to raise armies of lesser undead. As it should be with an epic spell, if you ask me.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Incidentally, I almost gave in with the fortify seed (making the anibuff derived application limited by caster level), but eventually decided to drop the ability to buff Int/Wis/Cha altogether: whatever you do with this one, it's breakable.

I can hear the wailing and gnashing of teeth already: "You mean epic magic can't replicate a 2nd level spell!" Although people will just correct your "oversight" and pencil in the mental stats after the physical ones in the fortify seed. Especially ones who are fans of your story hour and want to emulate the spell that puts Mostin's intelligence into the stratosphere.

Another thing that I could see people trying to do is "epicify" a spell by converting it directly into a seed. A true strike seed with a Spellcraft Prerequiste of 12, etc.. Your preamble invites this, and I'm curious how such efforts would play out, and what kinds of metaprinciples restraining such actions would be formulable.

I've purposely excluded any caster-level dependent restrictions within the seed descriptions - I think the latter breaks the spirit of epic spells,

.....it would cost as much to create 2 devourers (Spellcraft +22) as it would to create a lava wight (also Spellcraft +22)

The math isn't that bad: If there's another rules block somewhere that sets out the CHI/RHO system, you can just say that the Challenge (CHI) of the monsters created can't be more than one quarter the power (RHO) of the caster. Or use the Spellcraft Prerequisite in place of the caster's ECL. Or something. Upper Krust did something rather more complicated (involving disguised tables of logarithms) in his Challenging Challenge Ratings appendix to the Immortal's Handbook. In fact, that's where I got the system from; I reverse engineered the tables and approximated the final result as the ratio of sums of squares.

[sblock=Here's a quick and dirty version]List the CRs of the monsters in an encounter. Square each CR. Add them up. That's the CHI (or challenge) of the encounter. Now do the same thing with the ECLs of the PCs. That's their RHO (or power). Take CHI/RHO and multiply by 300 (or whatever number you wish). That's the xp per character level that the PCs should get for defeating the encounter. For a moderate encounter it will be 75. [/sblock]

And elegance or not, I'd want to put a cap (probably based on character level rather than caster level) on how powerful created undead can be. Or created anything. Unless the mitigating factors are especially resistant to abuse, that is: I just don't think a mage should be creating beings substantially more powerful than he is. It's like triple empowered simulacra; just a bad idea.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

I can hear the wailing and gnashing of teeth already: "You mean epic magic can't replicate a 2nd level spell!" Although people will just correct your "oversight" and pencil in the mental stats after the physical ones in the fortify seed.

The other option regarding the Int/Cha/Wis buff is to qualitatively separate it from the physical buffs with different factors applying. For each additional +1 modifier up to a total of +6, add +2 to the Spellcraft Prerequisite. For each subsequent +1, add +20 to the Spellcraft Prerequisite: this emulates the x10 multiplier when costing epic magic items which increase stats. This is actually how the +40 factor for the greater magic weapon formula is derived.

I'd be reluctant to apply this formula to physical stats, though - they really aren't as subject to abuse. And when you have other spells (polymorph etc.) which can do it indirectly, as well as new spells (bite of the werebear) which inflate it as well, it's hard to justify a high factor here.

 

[Cheiromancer]

[edit]I compare my guestimate of the mitigating factors to what Sep posted last night.​

So 18 SP for a +6 Int, and 58 SP for a +8? I'm not sure it should be that much easier to summon a lava wight than it is to give yourself a temporary +8 enhancement modifier to intelligence. Granted, owl’s insight (Druid 5; at 20th level gives +10 Wis for one hour) might be an anomaly (I don't see anything similar for Intelligence or Charisma in the SC), but would it really be overpowered for a greater fox's cunning (+8 Int) to be a 6th level spell (SP 22)? Or for supreme fox's cunning (+10 Int) to be an 8th level spell (SP 26)?

Maybe it’d be broken. I'll take your word for it, for now. Perhaps the question could be revisited after more of your system is revealed (especially the mitigating factors) and some sample spells are described.

Most of the mitigating factors are up (except for the ritual spells) but I still don't see it. Maybe it'll sink in if I think about it a bit more.​

I’m gonna take a stab at what some of those mitigating factors are going to be:

I'm estimating that a feat provides a 1/day mitigating factor of between -5 and -10 SP. Syneresis, for example, costs a feat slot, and thereafter enables epic spellcasting feats to be turned into -10 modifiers. That'd be -10 for two feats, -20 for three feats, etc..

Similarly, if a high level cleric's daily turning slots are worth two or three feats, Magnificat works out to be about -5 per feat equivalent. Magnificat would also enable a charismatic Druid (or wise Sorcerer) to take a level of cleric and a divine feat in order to get a -20 mitigating factor 1/day. That seems about right; multiclassing is a cost worth a feat or two.

Based on that, and based on the Upper Krust’s notion that a level is worth about 6 feats, it seems that sacrificing a level should be worth about a -30 to the Spellcraft Prerequisite. Maybe even -40 or -50, if you are generous. The sacrifice of xp should be somewhat comparable. If you are 25th level then a sacrifice of 10 000 xp is 40% of a level and should be worth 12 SP or so. As opposed to the 100 that the ELH says it is worth!

I think that is probably reasonable, especially for a damaging spell. A more powerful spell kills more bad guys, and so earns the caster more experience. Is the 12 SP going to translate into 10 000 xp more? Well, maybe. If it’s an enlarged reality maelstrom on a demonic battlefield it probably would.

Ah, I see you were generous! 10 000 xp is worth 40 SP in your system. That corresponds to a whole sacrificed level = -100 rather than -30. More than I expected.​

Suppose they sacrifice wealth, instead? In the form of expensive material components, say. The ELH (p. 23) says a 25th level character should have 2,100,000 gp worth of wealth/equipment (or their equivalent in game). A 26th level character has 2,500,000. Upper Krust says a level of wealth is worth 2 feats (he used to think 1, but he changed his mind). So that would yield a conservative exchange rate of 400 000 gp = 10 SP. Or 40 000 gp = 1 SP. This should probably be capped at a maximum of 10 SP.

My feat based estimate on mitigating factors was based on a bonus per day. But a caster can't spend 400 000 gp every day on their epic spells! Sure they'll be defeating more powerful foes and getting more treasure, but probably not that much more (an encounter isn't worth 400 000 gp until EL 37. See ELH 122. Thinking about it more, I'd probably make power components worth about 100 000 gp = 10 SP. Your rate is about twice as generous.
​

I wonder if these numbers would work throughout the range between 20th and 40th level? 10 000 xp = 12 SP is an ugly formula. 1000 xp = 1 SP is much nicer. And while at 40th level 10 000 xp won’t be worth quite as much as at 25th level, I think the cost is still pretty substantial. A 39th level character accumulates 1.3 million gold getting to 40th level, so 400 000 gp is nothing to be sneezed at.

Sep's system is about 4 times as generous as my first guess was. ​

Ok. How about backlash? I like your idea about Con damage, but something I had failed to notice before was that heal cured all ability damage. I don't know exactly how you are going to handle backlash, but it'll seem cheesy if a heal or mass heal can indirectly boost an epic spell by a lot. Con drain wouldn't be that much better; a simple 4th level restoration cures it, but takes 3 rounds to cast. And a gp cost, but at these levels 100 gp of diamond dust is negligible. If anything helps, it is the 3 extra rounds it takes to get back up to full Con.

Perhaps a dismissible Con penalty that can only be applied to non-instantaneous spells? If the Con penalty goes away, so does the spell. Maybe cap this at -10 as well. Perhaps have the penalty apply as well to Strength and Dexterity, representing the physical drain of the spell. Undead, who lack Constitution, might be eligible to take this mitigating factor as long as they have the other two stats.

Similarly, a factor which represents a heavy psychic load could be used. A spellcaster could take up to -10 dismissible penalty to all mental stats in order to maintain an epic spell.

Con damage that can't be healed by non-epic magic. Also a good solution. My use of penalties seems similar to your use of embedded spells, though I don't think those are as easily dismissed. Special purpose epic healing spells, designed to heal only backlash, would certainly be possible, wouldn't they? But then that character would have one less epic spell to contribute to cooperative or ritual casting.​

Anyway, that’s the result of my brainstorming. I’m eager to see what you came up with!

Interesting. I was quite a bit more strict with regard to treasure and xp. I should crunch some numbers to see what encounters can be overcome using more powerful epic spells (ones that require power components and/or xp), and whether the extra treasure and xp earned makes up for the difference in cost. The duration factors are also higher than I anticipated. A -15 to a spell that takes an hour to cast- that brings all sorts of things into the realm of possibility...​

 

[Al the Absentminded]

Here's one way to mitigate mental buff abuse:

The first - I dunno, either 5 or 10, let's go with 10 - the first 10 points of buffing cost the standard amount. So, buffing int by 10 would be 14 + 12, or 26. The next ten points of buffing cost double. So, buffing int by 20 would be 14 (the first 4) + 12 (the next 6) + 40 (the final 10) or 66. The next set of ten points cost triple, so a +30 int buff would be 126. And so on.

It'd probably be a good idea to limit mental buffs to Inherent and one or two other types.



Another possibility is to say that buff points are treated like point-buy Ability Score generation. To go from 17 to 18 costs three points of buffing, so maybe something like:

19: 3 points
20: 3 points
21: 3 points
22: 4 points
23: 4 points
24: 4 points
25: 4 points
26: 5 points
27: 5 points
28: 5 points
29: 5 points
30: 6 points

-Albert

 

[Jack Simth]

One of the nice features of this system is that Sepulchrave is giving some insight into the design process. A literal and narrow interpretation of the rules is going to break them somehow, either by not allowing what should be allowed, or by allowing something that shouldn't.

Special abilities on a creature might be calculated by assuming that the fast healing and breath weapon bumps up the CR of the creature it is being granted to. The DM can assign a CR to a Coatl with fast healing and breath weapon, and the resulting number can be fed into the Summon seed. It'll probably be cheaper that way than trying to combine the Summon, Heal, and Energy seeds anyway.

I'll give some thought to the other issues.

The catch, of course, is that if you let the Summon seed, by itself, grant the summoned critter abilities not in the base critter's statistics, then the Summon seed becomes hands down the most powerful, and True Spontanaity(Summon) breaks the game; you can just "summon" any critter that happens to have the ability you want - "Why yes, I'd like a standard action Lantern Archon summon with a 1/day ability to deal 100d6 Light damage in a 50 foot radius spread as a swift action. What's the CR on that?"