Epic Magic Big Thread

I could be missing something, but I decided to have a go at creating a spell using this sytem for my DM (who has epic level villians coming into play somewhere down the road)- is there no increase in the spellcraft DC for making a spell permanent?

I know in the initial ELH it was x5, under the new system it seems to just be an XP cost (which is indeed something significant, especially when you look at the XP cost to develop the spell and the XP cost if used as a mitigating factor). I don't have any experience with epic level play, but in designing this spell it seemed there almost needs to be some sort of increase to the DC for making an effect permanent.

But Sep has much more epic play under his belt than me- so I was wondering his rational.

Great work by the way, I was INCREDIBLY excited when I saw this thread. :)

Vorp
 

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Vorput said:
I could be missing something, but ... is there no increase in the spellcraft DC for making a spell permanent?

... I was wondering his rationale.

It seems like he generalized from permanency. If you look at that spell, you'll see that the cost to make things permanent is 500 xp per spell level. Each spell level corresponds to two ranks of Spellcraft Prerequisite, so the formula is the same.

I'm finding that he reined in easy bonuses quite a bit (no medallion of spellcraft +30, heck, no Skill Focus: Spellcraft or Intelligence bonuses, most of the mitigating factors are twice as expensive as in the ELH) but that there are also a number of modest decreases in the costs of factors, seeds, and so forth. I think spellcasters might be a bit toned down, but there are still lots of neat things that even a 21st level mage can do. And what do you expect from just one feat?

It seems to me that the bigger spells seem more out of reach than ever (like verdigris tsunami), but I think that could be fixed by modifying the factor for great increases in area (which costs a whopping +196 DC in the ELH). Similarly if you wanted an all-day cat's grace it would be practically impossible; increasing a spell's duration from 20 minutes to 24 hours is +142 to the Spellcraft Prerequisite. It seems like it should be easier.

Not that a wizard would be casting cat's grace on himself; an all-day spell resistance might be worth researching, though.
 

Cheiromancer said:
It seems to me that the bigger spells seem more out of reach than ever (like verdigris tsunami), but I think that could be fixed by modifying the factor for great increases in area (which costs a whopping +196 DC in the ELH). Similarly if you wanted an all-day cat's grace it would be practically impossible; increasing a spell's duration from 20 minutes to 24 hours is +142 to the Spellcraft Prerequisite. It seems like it should be easier.

But if I'm reading it right, a permanent cat's grace is relativly easy to do... with the min spellcraft check- but granting some xp.
 


If we look at the spells create undead and create greater undead to see what they're capable of...

Sep, I've done quite a bit of work with undead while I was developing both version of my epic spell system. Along the way, I found out a few things:

1) Like you figured out, the cutoff CR for undead at non-epic levels is 12. You can't create an undead of CR 13 or greater without an epic spell.

2) You can't make a intelligent templated undead of any kind at non-epic levels (the vampire Ftr 5 in the MM is CL 24).

I can give you the work I've done, but it's for a level-based system, not Spellcraft-based. I also came up with these modifiers last year during a discussion on how they got the factors for undead (before I did all this work), but I don't know how accurate they would be in your system:

Skeleton/zombie: -14
Ghoul: -10
Ghast: -8
Morhg: -2
Mummy: +0
Shadow: +2
Wraith: +4
Specter: +6
Devourer: +8
 

If you multiply the level by two and add the appropriate constant (maybe 10, maybe not) you should be able to match it up quite well with this skill ranks based system.

I don't understand how those modifiers work. Could you give an example?
 

A few points:
Cabal Leader and Ritual Adept are inconsistent as to how many particpants there may be in a ritual spell. Ritual Adept implies the normal number is 1 per 10 ranks of spellcraft, and Cabal Leader says the normal number 1 per 5 ranks.

I can see what you're thinking - the feat is badly worded.The normal number is 1 per 5 ranks, Ritual Adept allows 1 extra per 5 ranks (i.e. a total of 2 per 5 ranks).

The mitigating factor for increased casting time says the base casting time is 1 minute. That should be 1 standard action, right?

Yep. Good catch.

I'm wondering if the 5000 xp cost for non-divine use of the Heal seed is too high. Heal is 5th level on the adept spell list, and so limited wish can access it. The 5000 xp seems an allusion to the use of wish, but that amount of experience corresponds to a -20 mitigating factor. That seems too high. Ditto for the harm based application of the Harrow seed.

The original system allows no arcane use of heal at all - I wanted to keep a relative divine monopoly without barring arcane casters altogether. I'd pegged heal (the spell, not the seed) at 6th: I didn't even consider adepts, though. The buggers already screw with my cabal rules based on Leadership. The 5000xp is based directly off of wish.

I'm inclined to keep it in place for the time being, even though adepts are core. They're anomalous anyway (they don't get 5th level spells until 16th level). And I'd be pretty leery of letting an arcane caster cast heal with a limited wish: it's already got pretty sweeping powers. It seems kind of backdoor-ish. You've got a point, though.

A few of the base spells used in seeds have long casting times and/or expensive material components. Have you thought about modifying the spellcraft prerequisite in compensation?

Yes. I opted for simplicity in the end, and decided on the 5K xp as suitably appropriate/symbolic. I'd have to increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite of a number of other seeds (contact, summon (usually 1 round)) etc. +2 for summon is piddling, and I felt that I'd have to draw a line somewhere - it was just a question of where. And would summon be a +2 (because it has 1 round casting time) or +1 (because you can use limited wish = 250xp) to emulate it? I'd also have to retrofit polymorph as the dragonshape spell has a casting time of 1 swift action - therefore polymorph would have a Spellcraft Prerequisite of 20 instead of 28: this is addressed partially by the fact that a mature adult has a CR of 18, and the seed allows CRs of up to 20. There again, dragons are notorious for having lower CRs than they actually deserve..

So no modifiers to Spellcraft Prerequisite based on the casting time of the root spell, cost of material components, or XP (except initially with heal and life; harrow came later and call later still). I've been sceptical about the 1000 XP for call, but I like the idea of there always being an xp cost for this one, no matter how you mitigate.

Right now, though, I'm thinking of retooling summon off of summon monster iX: it might prove more pliable.

could you give an example where the +2/+1 rate for an intelligence buff would be broken?

Maybe I'm just paranoid about the fortify seed. It might scale better than I think. Ritual mitigation has been reduced as well (-1 per spell level), and that was my biggest concern. Frankly, I was at my wit's end with this seed for a whole variety of reasons. I tried splitting it (into augment and fortify) and heaven knows what else.

BTW, fortify should be a Transmutation effect, not an Abjuration. That's a copy/paste error.

Having a somewhat underpowered Energy seed might not be such a bad idea. It would indicate that the seed system is a more flexible system, but not always the best tool for a situation.

I don't know that I agree with this, and I think it's been used in the past to justify a vastly underpowered energy seed. It really needs to be competitive with metamagicked nonepic spells, especially if the epic caster is investing in feats designed to lower the Spellcraft Prerequisite for various things: this means he is not taking Intensify Spell, Multispell etc. And you're paying in time and resources to develop epic spells. As I say, I'd ideally like to split it into five seeds (I've been too lazy to think about it, though).
 
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I could be missing something, but I decided to have a go at creating a spell using this sytem for my DM (who has epic level villians coming into play somewhere down the road)- is there no increase in the spellcraft DC for making a spell permanent?

No. Cost for permanency is based on the Unmitigated Spellcraft Prerequisite x250. This means that a big spell (say a ritual with 5 participants, lots of mitigating factors, with a USP of 100) will cost 25,000 XP to make permanent. As Cheiromancer points out, it's based off of the permanency spell's 500 XP/level. To develop and then cast such a spell immediately afterwards would require a 29,000 XP investment (30th- level at the earliest); alternatively a 26th-level developer could wait before casting until just shy of 27th-level. In either case, it would strip an entire level's worth of XP from the caster.

There again, you can do some pretty cool sh*t with a USP 100 spell.

I had considered adding an additional +20 to the Spellcraft Prerequisite to allow it to be made permanent (emulating a seed with permanency as the root spell) but decided against it: effectively you'd be charging the caster twice for the same effect, and that seemed too much like a permanency supertax.

Remember that because of the dispel seed 'permanent' doesn't really mean permanent. D&D has another word for that - instantaneous :confused: .
 

It seems to me that the bigger spells seem more out of reach than ever (like verdigris tsunami), but I think that could be fixed by modifying the factor for great increases in area (which costs a whopping +196 DC in the ELH).

'Aggregates' can address some of these problems. They're formulas for bypassing very high Spellcraft Prerequisites by using special combinations of seeds.
 
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I can give you the work I've done, but it's for a level-based system, not Spellcraft-based. I also came up with these modifiers last year during a discussion on how they got the factors for undead (before I did all this work), but I don't know how accurate they would be in your system:

Skeleton/zombie: -14
Ghoul: -10
Ghast: -8
Morhg: -2
Mummy: +0
Shadow: +2
Wraith: +4
Specter: +6
Devourer: +8

Hi Kerrick. I know the epic spell system has been bugging you for years as well.

Empathy, man :\

These are revised from the animate dead seed in the ELH, right? How did you arrive at the numbers?
 

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