Epic Magic Big Thread

[Sepulchrave II]

Extending Casting Time: 1 round = -2; 1 minute = -4; 10 minutes = -5; 1 hr = -8; 1 day = -10; 1 week = -20; 1 month = -30.

It would really look a lot better if 10 minutes were -6 instead of -5. If a "day" meant 8 hours this would work well enough as an exponential progression, moderated by a little by a linear progression at the multi-day stage.

It was, then it wasn't, then it was, then it wasn't again. You know how it goes. Let's call it -6.

Maybe the backlash could be of a random type. That would be kinda fun.

I don't think the factor needs to be random. Players will do everything possible to minimize the random factor, and if not, well, it would be a lousy way to kill a character.

 

[Cheiromancer]

I suppose that I should have said that the players will minimize the chance of randomly killing themselves. Rather than minimizing the randomness.

That is, if you are talking about random effects that can kill you, you can't just consider the average damage; you have to consider the chance that it will kill you. And players don't like it if that chance is non-negligible.

But if the chance of being killed is effectively zero, there are probably a variety of kinds of random backlash the players would accept, and would make things interesting. A lot of plot hooks or campaign features can potentially be introduced as the random backwash of an epic spell.

 

[Cheiromancer]

For instance, suppose we have a 22nd level wizard with Str 11, Dex 16, Con 13. He might be willing to consider a spell that does a backlash of 12 Con damage.

Randomize it and say that it the backlash would do 2d6 Con damage to one of the physical stats. (So the max damage stays 12, but the average is lower) This actually has a chance of incapacitating him, whereas the previous version didn't. It could also open the possibility, in extremis, of using the spell twice or more in a row. Which wouldn't happen if it was a constant 12 points of Con damage. That opens up more possibilities, which is fun.

As you increase the randomness, you have to decrease the effect a bit to compensate. So instead of 2d6 to any physical stat, it might be 1d10 damage to any stat. There's a chance this will affect his Intelligence, which can be awkward to a wizard, but getting a -12 bonus at such a comparatively cheap rate would be very tempting.

Or suppose that instead of causing damage, maybe it causes a creature to be called from the far realm to some point within a mile or more of the caster (these should be for spells that would be cast in or near the caster's home base). The CR of the monster might be 1d6 for every -3, so 4d6. It is unlikely to appear close enough to pose an immediate threat, but will probably be a lot of trouble in the near future.

Or maybe the energy backlash from a -12 brings down 4d6 spell levels of spells currently on the caster. Abjuration spells are affected first, then transmutation, divination, etc.. Is getting that mitigating factor worth possibly saying goodbye to a mind blank and death ward?

Or maybe it brings a chance of insanity- the contact other plane spell might be a model for this.

Maybe a different kind of backlash is appropriate for each seed, or school.

But 3d6 (or 4d6) damage to Con is not worth considering. Even if the average of 3d6 is less than the 12 he'd be willing to pay, the chance of death is just too high. That's what my previous concerns were about. My thought today was that there could be randomness without increased lethality.

 

[Cheiromancer]

My feeling at present:

Heal and Harrow (Harm): SP 16. Arcane caster pays mandatory 500 xp.
Life: SP 26 (resurrection) and SP 33 (true resurrection). Arcane caster pays mandatory 1000 XP.
Awaken: SP 24. Additional cost of 250xp/creature awakened. No arcane penalty.

An admittance that the arcane surcharges are symbolic of the fact that wizards and sorcerers are less adept at manipulating these energies than divine casters: I think this concession is important, as it's a sacred cow. Folding awaken back into life is a possibility, although if we do it will be the only seed whose lowest SP root (awaken) isn't reflected in the seed school (Conjuration).

There again, awaken is the perfect candidate for Magnificat - whatever the hell that revised feat looks like.

This looks very, very solid. I like it a lot.

 

[Jack Simth]

Heal and Harrow (Harm): SP 16. Arcane caster pays mandatory 500 xp.
Life: SP 26 (resurrection) and SP 33 (true resurrection). Arcane caster pays mandatory 1000 XP.
Awaken: SP 24. Additional cost of 250xp/creature awakened. No arcane penalty.

An admittance that the arcane surcharges are symbolic of the fact that wizards and sorcerers are less adept at manipulating these energies than divine casters: I think this concession is important, as it's a sacred cow. Folding awaken back into life is a possibility, although if we do it will be the only seed whose lowest SP root (awaken) isn't reflected in the seed school (Conjuration).

Might it be fair to add something similar to Divine casters for things that aren't normally in the Cleric's purview - e.g., Conceal, Energy, Destroy and Force; perhaps add a note that if the Cleric has the appropriet domains (e.g., Trickery for Conceal, an elemental domain aligned with the type of Energy used, Destruction for Destroy, and... well, I'm sure there's a Force-style domain SOMEWHERE) - just for a little bit more balance between the classes.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Might it be fair to add something similar to Divine casters for things that aren't normally in the Cleric's purview - e.g., Conceal, Energy, Destroy and Force; perhaps add a note that if the Cleric has the appropriet domains (e.g., Trickery for Conceal, an elemental domain aligned with the type of Energy used, Destruction for Destroy, and... well, I'm sure there's a Force-style domain SOMEWHERE) - just for a little bit more balance between the classes.

This is covered by the "Area of Special Expertise" mitigating factor (-2) - I had clerical domains (and PrC niches) in mind when I added it. But I think that the taboo against arcane healing and resurrection spells is so fundamental that it needs special consideration.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Retrofitting Casting Times and Components into Seed SPs and Other Tweaks

Afflict: Reduce the base SP to 8 for bindness/deafness. The reason that I let this go originally was the added versatility of being able to afflict any sense seemed worth a +4 increase, and the iconic stature of bestow curse could be retained. Not so sure now, though. I think at SP 8 you should strike the target blind or deaf; at +4 SP afflict some other sense (blindsense, tremorsense etc.)

Animate: I want to include animate plants. Waive the arcane surcharge.

Animate Dead: Increase create greater undead subseed SP from 20 to 28 to reflect 1-hour casting time.

Contact: Reduce the interplanar factor of telepathic bond from +4 to +2: precedent SC p.125; interplanar telepathic bond is only sor/wiz 6. Maybe increase the sending SP by +6 to relect 10-min casting time of root spell: this seems pretty harsh, though. It might be offset by reducing the additional targets SP from +6 to +2 and adding an 'for each additional 25 words' clause at +1.

Delude: Increase screen subseed from SP 20 to SP 26 to refelct 10-minute casting time. I'm cool with this, as screen is pretty potent.

Energy: Add sonic effect at either +4 SP or at same SP but 10d4. I incline towards the former, or the wall of ... function gets difficult to manage.

Force: I think the combination resilient sphere and wall of force works, as the root resilient sphere is susceptible to greater dispel magic and an epic spell derived from this seed is not. Epic dispel can hit them both, anyway. I think we can waive the 1-level discrepancy.

Foresee: Increase SP for divination and contact other plane by +6 in both instances to reflect 10-minute casting time. Including moment of prescience and foresight would be nice, but foresight is notoriously subject to DM interpretation. Moment of prescience was originally excluded because of Spellcraft inflation - I didn't get round to putting it back in.

Heal, Harrow, Life: Been there, done that.

Reveal: Increase the SP by +6 and base scrying subseed on greater scrying (20 hrs) instead. Increasing clairaudience SP by +6 (10 minute casting) seems too much: a greater clairaudience (lvl 7, 1 hr/level) to mirror greater scrying seems wholly reasonable. Reduce interplanar factor from +10 to +4. Increase Discern location function by +6 to reflect casting time. Hate the other factors - this seed needs serious work.

Transmute: Turn A into B (not polymorph). This one's a headache - I want to include transmute rock to mud and flesh to stone but also some effects from polymorph any object (which is broken). Somehow translate the weird sympathetic magic durations of poly any object into factors: all would be permanent.

 

[Jack Simth]

This is covered by the "Area of Special Expertise" mitigating factor (-2) - I had clerical domains (and PrC niches) in mind when I added it. But I think that the taboo against arcane healing and resurrection spells is so fundamental that it needs special consideration.

Well, with the mandatory XP costs for some seeds when done by a Wizard/Sorcerer where a Cleric/Druid doesn't face them, and no mirrored extra costs for the Cleric/Druid where a Wizard/Sorcerer doesn't face them, you're making the Epic magic easier on the divine casters than the arcane - which means, compared to the Cleric or Druid, the Wizard or Sorcerer is going to be a bit behind in terms of Magic.... and the Cleric or Druid are often considered two of the most powerful/flexible classes to begin with. If you mirror the mandatory XP costs on other useful seeds, so that the Divine casters have to deal with XP costs where the Arcane casters don't (think, perhaps, the differences between Planar Ally and Planar Binding) then you can maintain something closer to balance between the two types of magic. Otherwise, well, the Wizard trying to do Epic Clerical stuff is going to be falling behind faster than the Cleric trying to do Epic Wizard stuff.

Or am I totally off base here? Keep the sacred cow; just, you know, hamper the other side a roughly equal amount.

 

[Cheiromancer]

I like the idea of basing seeds on moderate examples of a type of spell; levels 5 to 7 seem ideal. So using interplanar telepathic bond, greater clairaudience etc. are fine. And I'm not just saying that because of auroch's strength!

One theoretical justification is to say that more advanced techniques (available at higher levels) can replicate and far surpass the primitive techniques used in low-level spells. Kinda like calculus can do things easily that are very difficult (but possible) with geometry. Epic seeds use these more advanced techniques; they are all about simplifying, streamlining, and scaling up, and so they use the most robust and efficient base spells that are available.

I'm tempted to say that you shouldn't consider casting times for low level spells. A limited wish can replicate a 5th level spell with a 1 hour casting time as easily as a 5th level spell with a standard action casting time. This suggests that later insights have repaired whatever flaw makes those early attempts so unwieldy to cast in low valence slots, and so, from the standpoint of an advanced practitioner employing epic magic, they are both standard action spells.

Similar remarks apply to troubling features about time-related effects like duration. If an early spell in a suite lasts for 1 minute per level and a later one lasts for 1 hour per level, then the seed should use a more advanced version. Or maybe split the difference with 10 minutes per level. The days to years jump between raise dead and resurrection can be hand-waved in this fashion. Transvalent magic literally transcends the limitations of valent magic, especially the limitations of the lower valences.

There's no hard and fast criteria about when you can waive these limitations, but I think that looking at what limited wish can duplicate is a good start. If limited wish disregards a feature of a spell (be it gp costs, xp costs, casting time or whatever) then you should at least consider doing the same. Note that the 250 300 xp cost is instead of a lesser cost, not in addition to. If only one factor needs to be disregarded and it is a lower level spell, then I'd say do it- the long casting time for awaken, say. If it is at the limit of limited wish's power and there are several considerations involved (like for raise dead) then you have to be more careful. I think the current take on the life seed is an excellent example of a judicious application of these principles.

I think, however, that the long casting time of divination, contact other plane and sending are not, however, particularly relevant to the cost of the seed.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Well, with the mandatory XP costs for some seeds when done by a Wizard/Sorcerer where a Cleric/Druid doesn't face them, and no mirrored extra costs for the Cleric/Druid where a Wizard/Sorcerer doesn't face them, you're making the Epic magic easier on the divine casters than the arcane - which means, compared to the Cleric or Druid, the Wizard or Sorcerer is going to be a bit behind in terms of Magic.... and the Cleric or Druid are often considered two of the most powerful/flexible classes to begin with. If you mirror the mandatory XP costs on other useful seeds, so that the Divine casters have to deal with XP costs where the Arcane casters don't (think, perhaps, the differences between Planar Ally and Planar Binding) then you can maintain something closer to balance between the two types of magic. Otherwise, well, the Wizard trying to do Epic Clerical stuff is going to be falling behind faster than the Cleric trying to do Epic Wizard stuff.

Or am I totally off base here? Keep the sacred cow; just, you know, hamper the other side a roughly equal amount.

Don't forget the notion of clerics using their turning attempts to power epic spells!

I thought, for some reason, that epic wizards got more feats than epic clerics. But checking at http://www.d20srd.org I see this is not the case. Perhaps only arcane classes could be allowed to spend class-specific bonus feats on improving their epic magic?