Epic Magic Big Thread

[Cheiromancer]

Here's another [call], this time incorporating the mitigatation up front instead of paying the creature at the end of service: it's in the 'factors' entry, and it's kind of clunky. I'm wondering if the original payment from greater planar ally should stand - it's far more discriminating in terms of hazardous duties, ethical sympathies etc: it's really hard to translate this into an elegant factor because it scales off of another variable (creature HD). Anyway:

[Call]
Conjuration (Calling) [see text]

Root Spell: Greater planar ally
Preferred Mitigation: Extended Casting Time, Ritual, Power Components
Components: V,S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 1200ft.
Effect: Called elementals or outsiders of CR 10 or less
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

A spell incorporating this seed calls extraplanar creatures to serve you. If you know an individual creature’s name, you may request that individual by speaking the name during the spell.

Creatures called by use of the [call] seed serve you for 20 days, and will perform complex tasks which you assign to them. Few, if any, creatures will accept a task that seems suicidal (remember, a called creature actually dies when it is killed, unlike a summoned creature). If you wish to extend the creature's service beyond this time, you must negotiate an additional payment with it.

At the end of its task, or when the duration bargained for expires, the creature returns to its home plane (after reporting back to you, if appropriate and possible).

Note: When you use a calling spell that calls an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, it is a spell of that type.

Factors: For each additional +1CR of the called creature, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +2; for each +10CR above 10 of the called creature, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by an additional +2: these factors are cumulative.
Limitation: If you devise a spell which waives your exact choice of called creature and calls a creature of similar alignment instead, reduce the Spellcraft Prerequisite by -4.


Relevant half-factors: reduce casting time 3 steps (+6), reduce target CR by 10 (-20), extend range by 2 increments (+4), determine specific target creature (+4), incorporate native XP cost (+2), incorporate equivalent CR20/20-day payment as equivalent power component mitigation (+4).

At last! Now we can see that Call Graz'zt is a USP 68 spell. Assuming the CR 30 version here. And with complete ignorance about whether the binding was a separate spell, or worked in with the call; probably the latter, in some kind of cool aggregate. Although the "non-suicidal" clause might help explain why Graz'zt is bound instead of slain; he might be compelled to submit to binding (especially if there is a loop-hole, a chance for early release), but not certain death. Alternatively, death might have led to his reformation in Zelator, as in Upper_Krust's immortals rules, where beings of this rank must be slain on their home plane to be truly ended. And so Fillein chose to bind him instead. Plus he could be released if truly necessary (to be a thorn in Orcus's side, say).

There's gotta be some way of handling the non-hazardous duty/ethical sympathy angle. A straight -2/-4 factor would work at CR 20, but doesn't scale. Maybe -10%/-20% of CR?

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Thing is, the CR 13 monster from SM IX is a fiendish monstrous spider, not a glabrezu or gelugon. If you look at the true fiends, the spell summons a barbed devil (CR 11), hezrou (CR 11), bebilith (CR 10) or a night hag (CR 9). If you used these monsters, the base CR for your summon spell might be CR 12

Good point.

Which is a much nicer number than 14; it goes very neatly into 24, and fits smoothly with the +1 CR = +2 SP. Or this USP 24 spell could summon a specific CR 16 monster. Again, a nice number (2/3 of 24).

Very good point. 12 is very nice.

A PC's summon monster X (1 action/20-round duration/75-ft. spell) could have a cherry picked list of 12 CR 13 monsters, which I think would be quite an improvement over summon monster IX; in this selection you'd have the epic jump. The cherry picking alone would be worth about a +2 CR, (cf the CR 5 djinni in summon monster VII).

Excellent point.

I don't think elemental swarm provides as much support for your position as you say; assuming a 1 action/20-round duration/75-ft. spell with a specific target, I get CR 17 extrapolating from elemental swarm, not CR 19.

Lamentably, this is also irrefutable - the more so, because I had actually pegged the CR of elemental swarm based on an *elder* elemental, not a greater elemental as the climax. This is somewhat reassuring, however, as elemental storm isn't as cracked as I suspected.

Why shouldn't the prospect of summoning a balor tantalize a 23rd or 24th level caster?

I concede! CR 12 in the base seed.

I like the "spontaneous suite" kind of thing. I would recommend that this be how spontaneous casters perform epic magic; each epic spell slot comes with an epic spell, and they can cheaply research changes to it, and develop a very flexible suite. But only casters who prepare spells can research radically different spells to cast with their single epic spell slot; if a spontaneous caster wants to develop a different sort of spell, they have to take another feat.

This will parallel the flexibility of wizards over sorcerers into epic levels. Wizards can have any number of spells to potentially prepare in a spell slot, but sorcerers have very few.

I think that if sorcerers didn't already get the shaft, this idea would have a lot of merit. But in order to gain access to another spell suite, a sorcerer would have to sacrifice an AMC or an [Epic Magic] feat , or whatever. I'm concerned that they'd quickly fall behind in the epic magic race. It definitely bears thinking about, though.

I would like some way of making very short duration spells that are a *lot* more powerful than 20 round buffs; certainly more than +6 in factors better than an all-day buff. Things that will last one or two rounds, can be cast as swift actions, but which are very powerful. Two, three or four times as powerful as an all-day buff. I would also like a way that an all-day buff could be dismissed in exchange for a one-round boost; not as big as a swift spell designed for the purpose, but pretty big.

I see you've taken some of the Problemchild thread arguments to heart. Some kind of mechanic for 'swift action-1-round only' spells would be nice. Predictably, I'd suggest an epic feat to bypass the regular mechanics: some kind of 'Rapid Manifester.' Any ideas?

 

[Cheiromancer]

I concede! CR 12 in the base seed.

Hurrah!

I think that if sorcerers didn't already get the shaft, this idea would have a lot of merit. But in order to gain access to another spell suite, a sorcerer would have to sacrifice an AMC or an [Epic Magic] feat , or whatever. I'm concerned that they'd quickly fall behind in the epic magic race. It definitely bears thinking about, though.

Hmmm. Well, while sorcerers have to take feats to learn more spells, they also can cast them more often. Maybe they get to use the ISC slots and so get the advantage of bonus spells for high charisma?

I see you've taken some of the Problemchild thread arguments to heart. Some kind of mechanic for 'swift action-1-round only' spells would be nice. Predictably, I'd suggest an epic feat to bypass the regular mechanics: some kind of 'Rapid Manifester.' Any ideas?

Equally predictably, I want to treat the problem abstractly, and cover as many seeds as possible.

My memory for specifics is vague, but in that thread I seem to recall the notion of an all-day Strength buff giving a +2 enhancement bonus, dismissable for a 1 round bonus of +8. Or a 1-round "boost" of +20. So how about making the [fortify creature] seed last 20 hours (fudgeable to 24 hours), at a particular bonus, but allow it to be dismissed as an immediate action for quadruple the bonus?

Alternatively, a spell researched at a base duration of 1 day (20 hours) can be modified to form a spell that gives 10 times the bonus for a single round.

Actually, this scares me just writing it. But let's see my version of the [fortify] seed, boosted to USP 24

[sblock=Seed: Fortify Creature]
Transmutation

Root Spell: Bull’s strength, barkskin, heroism, stoneskin, spell resistance, etc.
Spellcraft Prerequisite: 24
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 20 hours
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

Spells using the fortify creatureseed augment one or more of the target's faculties, either to enable it to withstand a particular kind of threat, or to lend it additional power or effectiveness in a certain area. Fortify creature is a versatile seed with many possible applications.

The caster can choose to develop a spell which can do one of the following:

• The caster can choose to develop a spell which grants a +12 enhancement bonus to any ability score. The ability score to be enhanced must either be chosen during spell development, or the spell flexibility factor included in development to allow such an enhancement to be determined when the spell is cast.
  Factor: For each additional +1 bonus, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +2.
  factor:To enhance either all physical ability scores or all mental ability scores increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +8. To enhance all six ability scores increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +12.
• The fortify creature seed can also be used to grant 7 temporary hit points per hit dice of the target.
  Factor: For each additional temporary hit point bestowed per target’s hit dice, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +4.
• The fortify ability seed can grant spell resistance 36.
  Factor: Each additional point of spell resistance increases the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +1.
• The fortify ability seed can grant damage reduction 10/adamantine, preventing a total of 400 points of damage in this fashion before it is discharged; alternatively it can provide damage reduction 10/adamantine and epic and prevent 150 points of damage.
  Factors: For each additional point of damage reduction, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +1; for each additional 50 points which can be absorbed before the spell is discharged, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +2.
• Grant a +12 enhancement bonus to natural armor which stacks with existing natural armor, but not with other enhancement bonuses to natural armor.
  Factor: For each additional +1 bonus, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +2.
• Grant a +6 morale bonus to attack rolls, saving throws and skill checks.
  Factor: For each additional +1 bonus assessed to all three of these categories, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +2.
• Grant a +8 morale bonus to either attack rolls, saving throws or skill checks.
  Factor: For each additional +1 bonus assessed to one of these categories, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +2.

Conditions
A factor which makes a spell permanent may not combine with the fortify creature seed.[/sblock]

So; the fighter can go along all day with a +12 bonus, or he can dismiss it for a +48 bonus when he really needs it. That would be +24 to attack *and* damage for 1 round; kind of a true strike on steroids. I would think he'd be making at least 5 attacks during this round, and doing at least another 120 hp of damage; more if he's powerattacking. Or maybe he's making a totally awesome strength check to rip open an adamantine portal or something. Still, compared to what a [destroy] spell can do, it's in the right ball park.

A wizard with a USP 28 spell can cast a quickened monumental intellect and virtually guarantee that the +40 boost to the save DC will overwhelm his opponent- unless he realizes at that moment that he should be doing something else entirely. This a tough one- but if the spells are balanced on the presupposition that the chance of saving should be about 50%, then spending two spells to guarantee that one goes through isn't so bad. And there might be some reason why the spell wouldn't work anyway; maybe it's being cast at a solid projected image; or maybe his opponent is going to respond by dismissing his epic spell resistance and enjoy SR 360 for a round.

Let's see. A character could get 70 hp per hit die, but only for one round. I could see having a couple of thousand extra hit points being useful.

Yeah, I think that this x4/x10 principle is pretty cool. What do you think?

Am I still the sober voice of reason, reining in your excess?

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Equally predictably, I want to treat the problem abstractly, and cover as many seeds as possible.

Other than [fortify] (and maybe [ward]), I don't really see any other seeds offering much in the way of benefit in terms of a spell dismissed into an immediate boost. I think that adding a (D) (at +2) to its duration, combined with a special factor (equivalent to sweeping flexibility, at least) is the way to go here: it would allow the recipient of the buff (not just the caster) to dismiss it, and translate the magic into one short-lived bonus: exactly how much, I'm not sure.

Strangely, I find myself looking to moment of prescience for pointers.

The swift action, 1-round spells might offer a somewhat wider range of choices: I guess you could assume a bigger, badder shape with [polymorph] for one round, or invoke an [energy]-based effect with a short duration (say a nasty blade barrier effect) - I think that instantaneous spells would (and should) generally trump this, though. A swift invisibility or displacement via [conceal] is kind of redundant as an epic spell. A swift time stop could be achieved naturally through the [time] seed for +8 anyway (this seed is going to be tricky to integrate, btw.). A swift [animate] or [afflict] might be kind of cool.

I think a feat is perfect - it doesn't demand the retooling of seeds, and because it's a feat, it's implicitly worth maybe -30 in mitigation if it's very specific. It might look something like this:

SEED SPASM[Epic][Epic Magic]
You specialize in the rapid deployment of powerful, short-lived epic magic effects.
Prerequistes: Epic Spellcasting, Quicken Spell
Benefits: Any spell which you develop as a swift-action 1-round spell from a seed with a base duration of 200 minutes or more gains +30 additional special free factors. These free factors do not count against the development costs of the spell, but their function must be allocated during spell development: only factors specific to the seed (such as an increase to an ability score from the [fortify] seed, or an increase in the CR of a creaure subject to the [summon] seed), not generic factors (such as increasing range or a spell's Save DC) can benefit from these free factors.

I know that it would scare the sh*t out of most people if they were confronted by an infernal, even if it were only for one round.

immediate action

Ye gods, what kind of grognard do you take me for?

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Cheiro, re: your [fortify]

1) 200 mins, 1200 ft. would be nice
2) Remind me again how you derive the temporary hp. It was a long time ago.
3) How do you derive the +8 and +12 factors for physical or mental / all ability scores?
4) Why the different sinks for DR/adamantine and DR/adamantine and epic?

A wizard with a USP 28 spell can cast a quickened monumental intellect and virtually guarantee that the +40 boost to the save DC will overwhelm his opponent- unless he realizes at that moment that he should be doing something else entirely. This a tough one- but if the spells are balanced on the presupposition that the chance of saving should be about 50%, then spending two spells to guarantee that one goes through isn't so bad.

:blink:

And there might be some reason why the spell wouldn't work anyway; maybe it's being cast at a solid projected image; or maybe his opponent is going to respond by dismissing his epic spell resistance and enjoy SR 360 for a round.

I don't know that maybe the opponent has some uber-epic defense necessarily constitutes a sound argument for balance regarding a +40 increase in a spell's Save DC.

Let's see. A character could get 70 hp per hit die, but only for one round. I could see having a couple of thousand extra hit points being useful.

This basically amounts to "the character is immune to hp damage for one round," which I'm actually fine with.

Am I still the sober voice of reason, reining in your excess?

 

[Cheiromancer]

I had to go look up immediate action to make sure I got it right, so I thought I would include the reference. I still get confused about the distinction between one round and full-round action casting times. It's the "wait until just before your next turn" that makes "one round" seem longer than a "full-round" and that seems counter-intuitive. Anyway...

My original seed was based on an extrapolation of the anibuffs (etc.) to 5th level and a +10 bonus, then I scaled it back to +8 in exchange for increasing the duration ten-fold:

[sblock=Seed: Fortify Creature]
Transmutation

Root Spell: Bull’s strength, barkskin, heroism, stoneskin, spell resistance, etc.
Spellcraft Prerequisite: 14+
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 200 minutes
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

Spells using the fortify creatureseed augment one or more of the target's faculties, either to enable it to withstand a particular kind of threat, or to lend it additional power or effectiveness in a certain area. Fortify creature is a versatile seed with many possible applications.

At a base Spellcraft Prerequisite of 14, the caster can choose to develop a spell which can do one of the following:

• The caster can choose to develop a spell which grants a +8 enhancement bonus to any ability score. The ability score to be enhanced must either be chosen during spell development, or the spell flexibility factor included in development to allow such an enhancement to be determined when the spell is cast.
  Factor: For each additional +1 bonus, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +2.
  factor:To enhance either all physical ability scores or all mental ability scores increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +8. To enhance all six ability scores increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +12.
• The fortify creature seed can also be used to grant 5 temporary hit points per hit dice of the target.
  Factor: For each additional temporary hit point bestowed per target’s hit dice, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +4.
• The fortify ability seed can grant spell resistance 28.
  Factor: Each additional point of spell resistance increases the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +1.
• The fortify ability seed can grant damage reduction 10/adamantine, preventing a total of 200 points of damage in this fashion before it is discharged.
  Factors: For each additional point of damage reduction, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +1; for each additional 50 points which can be absorbed before the spell is discharged, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +2. To increase the damage reduction value to adamantine and epic, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +10.
• Grant a +8 enhancement bonus to natural armor which stacks with existing natural armor, but not with other enhancement bonuses to natural armor.
  Factor: For each additional +1 bonus, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +2.
• Grant a +2 morale bonus to attack rolls, saving throws and skill checks.
  Factor: For each additional +1 bonus assessed to all three of these categories, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +2.
• Grant a +4 morale bonus to either attack rolls, saving throws or skill checks.
  Factor: For each additional +1 bonus assessed to one of these categories, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +2.

Conditions
A factor which makes a spell permanent may not combine with the fortify creature seed.[/sblock]

Based on this seed I increased the duration by one step (+2) and then spent another +8 in factors in the various categories. I'm rather surprised (but pleased) that the numbers came out as 8s, and 12s and 6s.

The temporary hit points was based on an improvement to constution; I swapped out the increase to Fortitude saves and Concentration checks for making them temporary hit points. But right now I can't remember why the original seed has +5 hp per die (corresponding to a +10 bonus) instead of +4; I think it must be a carry-over from the earlier version, and should be +4. The day-long version should thus be +6, not +7. The original seed includes adding "and epic" for +10 SP; I think I got that from your version. So the +8 in extra factors wasn't quite enough to pay for it. I reduced the sink to get the extra +2 I needed. Though if "and epic" were +8 instead of +10, then the numbers would be nicer. Anyway....

I gather that you think the x4/x10 numbers are too high? I have to admit I was reading Upper_Krust's Immortal's Handbook: Ascension last night, so I might have gotten carried away. x2/x5 would be possible, I suppose.

You are right in that the dismissing/spasming feature would be appropriate only for [fortify] and [ward]. You could fit them in a few other places; an epic invisibility (normally cloaking you to five senses) that makes you undetectable even to divine beings for a round; the x4 bonus would be to the opposed level check vs the divine true seeing or what-not. Maybe your army of zombies could become advanced wights for a round before crumbling into dust- that's stretching it a bit, since [animate dead] is instantaneous. Or a truly horrendous (but short-term) [afflict]; that might work, particularly if someone devoted a feat to the art.

Still, it would be nice if the "dismiss for a neat effect" could be included in more spells. It's kinda fun to make players give up their buffs voluntarily, and I'd like the option to be widely available. More available than if a feat were required.

I was also thinking that the x10 factor might be useful for unlocking secrets of things like pharamne's urn. It's hard to make a DC 300 wisdom check with just normal, linear factors. Speaking of exponential factors (and lore associated with Graz'zt), is it just a coincidence that the 55 years of Graz'zt's binding is almost exactly 20,000 days? I'm curious if instead of making it permanent, Fillein just added a few x10 factors to the standard 20 days of a call.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Let's put the spasm issue on the back-burner for a moment. I want to return to talk about the [life] seed again;

Suppose Raise dead is a USP 19 effect (19 -4 casting time, -1 power component = 14 = 5th level). Let's also suppose that you want to increase the temporal range from days to decades; x 3650 duration is about 3.5 ten-fold increases (3.56, actually) at +2/step = +7. Let's also assume that you wish to add almost-sweeping flexibility to your targets; dead outsiders, destroyed undead, those slain by death magic, those for whom only a fragment of their body is present; another +8. +15 total.

Let's also assume that since we are dealing with factors applied to non-epic spells, that the rule 6 SP = 1 spell level applies. Then resurrection's +2 levels provides +12 SP, the increased casting time (10 minutes vs 1 minute) provides another +2, and the more expensive component provides +1 SP. Exactly the +15 required.

Both raise dead and resurrection cause the being raised to lose a level of experience; by dropping to the mid-point of the previous level, which is about 500 xp per level. This corresponds to a cost (at 250 xp = 1 SP and level = CR) of 2 SP per CR.

Which is very interesting; this ratio shows up in [summon], [call] and [animate dead] as well.

True resurrection is two levels higher than resurrection, and costs 15 000 gp more. At 6 SP/spell level and 5000 gp = 1 SP this is another +15 SP, for a total of 50 SP. You get the raise dead effect, but with the broad temporal range and sweeping flexibility (you only need an unambiguous description of the entity raised). But where did the +2 SP/CR go? It's not being absorbed by the target any more.

I submit that true resurrection employs a different paradigm; it is purely on the 2 SP per +1 CR model, and should only work on targets whose level/CR is 25 or less. Note that 25 is where 9th level spells typically cap their effects. But it is basically the same spell as [animate dead], which creates an undead monster at an SP = 20, or twice the monster's CR, whichever is greater. At least my seed did; I don't recall if yours did.

Awakening a plant or animal works on much the same principle; a colossal awakened tree uses the stats of a colossal animated object, which has a CR of 10. SP 20 would be in the realm of the [life] seed, (and explains the 24 hour casting time for awaken spell; the designers want to make sure that a 4th level (SP 12) spell can hit an SP target in the 20s; a -15 casting time duration factor and an xp cost is a way of doing this).

Anyway, this would sweep [life], [awaken] and [animate dead] into a very simple seed that employs 2 SP = 1 CR as its basic mechanic. You could even raise, awaken or animate multiple low CR characters in this way.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Relevant half-factors: reduce casting time 3 steps (+6), reduce target CR by 10 (-20), extend range by 2 increments (+4), determine specific target creature (+4), incorporate native XP cost (+2), incorporate equivalent CR20/20-day payment as equivalent power component mitigation (+4).

This is for the base 8th level spell, right? (SP 20?) I presume the cleric is calling a pit fiend (CR 20, 18 HD). The "determine specific target creature" should probably be +8; that makes the final SP come out to be 24, and makes the flexibility almost-sweeping.

That analysis looks compelling, but it yields a [call] seed that is plainly superior to a [summon] seed. A called CR 14 creature (+8), at short range (-4) and 20 minutes duration (-4) with almost-sweeping flexibility (built in) is SP 24. A summoned CR 14 creature (+4) at short range (-4) and 20 minutes duration (-2) and almost-sweeping flexibility (+8) is SP 30. Add the fact that called creatures are superior to summoned creatures in their capabilities...

I think if you added the CR of the called creature in again, (i.e. if this called CR 14 creature were SP 38) then it might be OK. At 24 USP, a CR 8 at long range and 200 minutes duration (or short range and 20 days duration), with +1 CR = +3 SP would do nicely. That's with a great deal of choice (corresponding in value to the almost-sweeping of [summon]). Without it you could probably get another +2 CR; I'd say giving up the choice would be worth a -6 mitigating factor.

This flexibility is the big difference between ally and binding, isn't it? Well, a bound outsider is a lot less tractable than an ally. So you pay for the flexibility, but you also have to account for the fact that you can get a max HD creature with a binding, but you'll average a lower CR with the ally. I think SP = CR * 3 works fine.

That 8th level spell (SP 20) has -16 points in mitigating factors, -22 given that there isn't a choice, and so on average will get a CR 14 creature. Usually some sort of devil, but elementals aren't unheard of; a pit fiend would be quite rare. The average CR would often be a bit higher, considering that there would normally be ethical sympathy (worth -2 or -4 or so in mitigating factors). Oh, and this is probably a special area of expertise, so probably another -2. A CR 16 average should be expected. That sounds about right.

Anyway, I'd suggest that at short range and 20 days duration, [call] yield a CR 8 creature; and that each +1 CR = +3 SP. Unfortunately that makes Call Graz'zt a very difficult USP 90, or 96 if the duration of the call is extended to 20 000 days. Could Fillein and his cabal manage that?

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Good analysis. Although the [call] seed is instantaneous: I hadn't figured on the duration being modified. I left the 'additional payment after 20 days' suitably vague. And 20 days was merely a convenient choice in order for it to resonate with the cost of the power component.

That said, I think that not having to negotiate with the creature (a process that usually takes 'at least one round') also merits consideration; this is a side-benefit of paying the mitigation up-front. I'm wondering whether to call a specific creature with no requirement of ethical sympathy, threat of divine interference or period of negotiation prior to sevice constitutes 'sweeping flexiblity' from the planar ally suite (+10): I've retained +8 below, because it fits better.

It's sad how 'sweeping flexibility' can hand-wave role-playing away.

I'm also wondering if a 10th-level call should have any 'special benefit' that distinguishes it from it's nonepic counterparts: I'm thinking that this might be the opportunity for 'renewed negotiation' after an initial (20 minute) period of service has been fulfilled; with the nonepic spells you don't get this kind of discretion. This means that the additional (clunky) factor required by translating material components can be omitted - they don't really show on the scale at 100gp/HD (20 min service). It also means that the +1CR/+2SP factor can be retained and emphasizes a role-playing component (the renewed negotiation) - one of the defining features of the nonepic suite - without embedding the material components problem in the spell's mechanic.

This [Call] might be better:

[Call]
Conjuration (Calling) [see text]

Root Spell: Greater planar ally
Preferred Mitigation: Extended Casting Time, Ritual, Power Components
Components: V,S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 1200ft.
Effect: Called elementals or outsiders of CR 6 or less
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

A spell incorporating this seed calls extraplanar creatures to serve you. If you know an individual creature’s name, you may request that individual by speaking the name during the spell. Otherwise, you call an average specimen of the extraplanar creature.

Creatures called by use of the [call] seed serve you initially for up to 20 minutes, and will perform tasks which you assign to them. Few, if any, creatures will accept a task that seems suicidal (remember, a called creature actually dies when it is killed, unlike a summoned creature). If you wish to extend the creature's service beyond this time, you must negotiate an additional payment with it (see below).

At the end of its task, or when a duration bargained for expires, the creature returns to you. At this time, you may renegotiate its service with you, or dismiss it back to its home plane at your option.

Note: When you use a calling spell that calls an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, it is a spell of that type.

Factors: For each additional +1CR of the called creature, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +2.

Special: If you wish to extend the period of the creatures' service beyond 20 minutes, you must must negotiate with it to ensure its subsequent loyalty to you. For each additional 20 days of service rendered, a creature requires 1000gp in goods and magic items for each hit die which it possesses. Such a contract is renewable; when you choose to finally end the contract, the creature returns to its home plane. If you require the creature to undertake especially hazardous tasks, the payment doubles. If you require it to undertake mundane tasks, or tasks to which it is philosophically sympathetic, the payment is halved. Called creatures will act at their own discretion within the limits of the instructions which you give them: evil creatures will seek to interpret the letter of any contract literally, twisting it for their own ends.



Relevant half-factors: reduce casting time 3 steps (+6), reduce target CR by 10 (-20), extend range by 2 increments (+4), almost-sweeping flexibility from planar ally (+8), incorporate native XP cost (+2), predicted 10th-level benefit (open-ended [call]) (+4).

/Edit: reduced target CR to 6 (assumes a CR 16 base creature).

 

[Cheiromancer]

Much better.

Let's see. Suppose you want to enlist the service of a balor for 20 days. Probably SP 48 (base 24 + 2 * 14 extra CR - 4 reduced range). And then you'd have to pay around 20 000 gp, or maybe 40 000. That's the equivalent of -4 or -8 in mitigation, so SP 52 or 56.

Summoning a balor for 20 days is a lot easier. (base 24 + 2 * 8 extra + 4 extra duration - 4 reduced range). Only SP 40.

I kinda like the notion of the difference between noumenal and phenomenal being around 12 or 16, so that fits too.

(Just based on theory of seeds; it wouldn't necessarily be possible to summon a creature for that long- though I don't see why not.)

This puts a custom-designed spell to call a CR 30 demon prince within reach of a small cabal of high-level casters led by a Wiz 30, or within grasp of a single caster prepared to burn 10,000 XP - if burn is limited to 250XP/level, he'd have to be 40th-level anyway.

I was just wondering about that. Though that only covers the first 20 minutes- not the next 55 years.

[edit]Base 4? Then USP of 76 for a certain CR 30 demon prince.

Assuming a 30th level spellcaster; 33 ranks of spellcraft, you could have Epic Spellcasting and 6 Improved Metamagic feats (-12 SP). Make it an all day spell (-15), reduced range (-4). You only need 12 more factors from somewhere. Less if you have another couple of levels.

[edit2] I think the value of a power component should be proportionate to its square root; 25 000 would be -5, 36 000 would be -6, 49 000 -7 and so on.