Epic Magic Big Thread

[Sepulchrave II]

For Enhanced I'd make it do double damage; allow the (usually illicit) double-empower factor into an epic spell. A flat bonus is odd since the base damage might be anything from a few d6s (for a wall of fire or some kind of exotic fire shield) or 40d6 (for a disintegrate based effect). A fixed multiplier would be better.

I'd thought about this; the problem is the fact that any impromptu modification would stack with preexisting factors which are enlarged by feats which allow exponential access (e.g. Metannihilator). It's less of an issue with range and duration than it is with damage, but if such a modification were to stack with Herald of the Eschaton, then it would be dishing out a base 240d6 of damage plus 12d6 per +1SP.

I don't necessarily want to exclude sorcerers from the Metannihilator chain, though. I think the best way around it might be to allow Epic Spell Flexibility to apply a +4 exponential factor in some cases, and a +8 linear factor in others.

Alternatively, we could reintroduce the defunct "increase damage die by one size" factor - I originally eliminated it because of its redundancy and imbalance as a factor; it might work as a modification in Epic Spell Flexibility.

I'm still groping around wrt sorcerers; I'm not entirely satisfied with anything so far.

Edited feat to reflect latest thoughts.

*

Random observation: perhaps all seeds should have a base duration of 20 hours. My paranoia regarding [fortify] has subsided somewhat.

*

But I'm wary of absolutes; should an epic energy drain allow an opposed caster level check to see if the death ward is momentarily suppressed?

Good question. I'd say that it was in line with a predicted 'epic benefit' (in the same vein as [slay]), but I have reservations. And Energy drain seems no less broken with U_K's feats than it is with the core feats: 7 x IM + Intensify would guarantee you 16 negative levels. The problem is always that you shrug it off if you're protected with a death ward and you're toast if you're not.

Here is a radical thought: if you've been exploring the dynamics of no-save effects, can you engineer a seed where the epic equivalent of energy drain is predicated on either

a) Fort. negates or;
b) Fort. half

Would either of these solutions create a more balanced seed? It strikes me that a seed that drains 5 levels as a no-save 9th-level effect might drain 8 as an epic effect with Fort. half (av 6; on a 50% save). I'm guessing that a Fort. half effect would incur a +2 factor for every additional negative level bestowed; I haven't done the math.

[Irony] if bestowing a negative level on a target reduces its CR by -1, then -1CR = +2SP.

*

Alternatively, one could not extend the 'predicted epic benefit' to [energy drain] or [slay], and insist that if a spell is specifically developed with this benefit then it must include the [dispel] seed as a secondary seed (at +12). The base seed would be +4 exponential factors better off; death ward would remain inviolable, except against a [dispel]-[harrow] or [dispel]-[slay] combo.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Alternatively, one could not extend the 'predicted epic benefit' to [energy drain] or [slay], and insist that if a spell is specifically developed with this benefit then it must include the [dispel] seed as a secondary seed (at +12).

I'm ok with the first part of this, but I think that the factor in an epic spell to overcome a generic immunity is about +8, not +12. And it doesn't involve [dispel].

[sblock=Lots of headache inducing calculations and arguments in support of this and other theses.] +8 is 1/3 of the cost of the basic 10th level spell (SP 24). In kernel notation that same 10th level spell is costed as 60 points, and the size of a kernel that provides a broad immunity is also around 1/3 of that total (20 or so) So the cost to counteract a protection is exactly equal to the cost of providing it - it's just that we are using different point value currencies to price the two costs, and they look different. This assymetry is exceptional: most factors have the same value in both currencies; duration and range factors, for instance, are the same on both sides.

Here's a kernel analysis of death ward and mind blank.

e.g. Death Ward = level 4 = 24 points = (X + touch +2 + minutes duration +2) X = 20
e.g. Mind Blank = level 8 = 48 points = (X + close +6 + hours duration +6) X = 36

Mind blank provides two sweeping immunities (mind-affecting spells and divinations), both at about +20. It is famously debated whether mind blank protects against all divinations, or whether things like true strike work against a mind-blanked opponent. If true strike works, then maybe the 20 points for immunity to divination got discounted a little; down to 16. Or maybe true strike doesn't work, but the utility of immunity against divination is limited, and that's the reason for the discount. But anyway it's about 20 points in kernel currency, which is 8 points in seed currency. Now that I think about it, Death ward provides against two kinds of effects too; death effects and negative energy effects. More on that later.

Hmmm. I wonder what the kernel value of protection from energy is? Let's see

level 3 spell = 18 = (X + touch +2 + 10s of minutes +4) so X = 12. Maybe a little higher, since protection from energy has a limited buffer (120 points). Fold in +8 enhancement to the protection (so it caps out at 240), and X is 20. That's in kernel units; in seed units it would be 8. What did we say the modifier for typeless energy was again?

It seems to me that the use of these factors does not simply negate or suppress the relevant protection (in which case buttressing the death ward might help) it changes it so the immunity is irrelevant. Fire resistance is not going to help against typeless energy; death ward isn't going to help against an epic blasphemy.

I'm strongly tempted to make death magic a +6 factor that maximizes damage against a creature subject to death magic. I think the factor is really a +9 but it automatically includes the -4 "only affects living creatures" and the minor (+1) "victims killed in this way cannot be raised" factor. +9 is a fair cost for Maximize Spell, since it is semi-exponential (it almost doubles the damage done). All of these are values in both kernel and seed currencies.

I think I've suggested that finger of death is really a disintegrate modified by this factor. Disintegrate, in turn, is an [energy] effect modified by the "skew" factor, which doubles damage on a failed save, but caps the dice on a successful save at the same value as the base kernel. For [energy] the kernel is the 10d6/5d6 of fireball or lightning bold. Skewed it is 20d6/5d6, and enhanced it is 40d6/5d6. Add death magic and it is 240/30. A finger of death kills you on a failed save and does 3d6+20 points of damage on a failed save; average 30.5.

I wonder if it is a coincidence that the hp damage assigned to "death" is the same as the hp damage to be absorbed by "energy immunity"? It seems like as far as the core spells go, they were treating 240 hp as "infinite". Anyway, here's the kernel analysis in less verbose form:

Disintegrate (damage 4 + enhance +8 + medium +8 + heightened +6 + typeless +8 + skew +2 + 1 no raise dead = 37)/6 = 6th level
Finger of death (damage 4 + enhance +8 + close +6 + heightened +8 + typeless +8 + skew +2 + death magic +6 = 42)/6 = 7th level

The point is that you can dispense with death magic if you do enough damage; death magic can be modeled by direct damage spells that do an awful lot of damage on a failed save. I don't know if we've finished with the blast half of the [energy] seed, but if we expect jacobean casters to keep up with their conventional counterparts it is going to be able to do a heck of a lot of damage, and so there is a powerful argument for folding [slay] into a single factor of the [energy] seed.

And if we end up allowing factors like Empower Spell and Maximize Spell (maybe at 3 times their spell level adjustment; i.e. Empower Spell = +6 and Maximize Spell = +9) then it's easy to see that replacing the death magic factor is a +3 or +4 adjustment; just remove the -4 "only affects living targets", which increases the cost by +4, and maybe take off the minor no-raise-dead factor to make it +3. If we don't allow those factors at any cost (the cumulative use of exponential factors is problematic) then we should at least recognize that they are lurking in the background.

Anyway, death effects are part of what death ward protects against; negative energy effects are the other part. If negative energy is essentially the same as elemental energy, insofar as bypassing it is concerned, then you can use the +8 we derived from the protection from energy analysis. So anyway, death ward should be fairly easy to bypass. A little harder if you are using negative energy than if you are using a death effect, but pretty straightforward nonetheless.

I haven't done a parallel analysis for mind-affecting, but I strongly suspect the results would be similar. Look at command undead; it's a second level spell that is a duplicate of charm monster. The 12 point difference in the kernel analysis is largely made up by the save DC difference (4 points in kernel currency) In fact, I bet the only difference between them (beside a bit of heightening) is the "sweeping flexibility" factor. But if there is an undead resistance to being controlled or commanded, it is maybe 4 points. Maybe only +2. A spell that bypasses all forms of specific resistance to mind affecting spells (undead, mindless, construct, plant) shouldn't need much more than +8 SP.[/sblock]

Random observation: perhaps all seeds should have a base duration of 20 hours. My paranoia regarding [fortify] has subsided somewhat.

It still seems a bit procrustean to me, but I am delighted to see that the f-word is no longer a vulgarity!

Alternatively, we could reintroduce the defunct "increase damage die by one size" factor - I originally eliminated it because of its redundancy and imbalance as a factor; it might work as a modification in Epic Spell Flexibility.

I'm still groping around wrt sorcerers; I'm not entirely satisfied with anything so far.

This is still a multiplicative factor, though a smaller one, and one that is concealed mechanically. But still. Why not just drop it as an impromptu factor? Isn't eight enough?
[edit] 50% might work. Even with Herald of the Eschaton. And it's certainly better than requiring them to work out suites ahead of time, or allowing them to waste hours tinkering with their spells at the table. [edit]

Here is a radical thought: if you've been exploring the dynamics of no-save effects, can you engineer a seed where the epic equivalent of energy drain is predicated on either

a) Fort. negates or;
b) Fort. half

Would either of these solutions create a more balanced seed? It strikes me that a seed that drains 5 levels as a no-save 9th-level effect might drain 8 as an epic effect with Fort. half (av 6; on a 50% save). I'm guessing that a Fort. half effect would incur a +2 factor for every additional negative level bestowed; I haven't done the math.

[Irony] if bestowing a negative level on a target reduces its CR by -1, then -1CR = +2SP.

Epic wizards get 8 feats in 12 levels. If a krustean wizard spends them all on Automatic Metamagic Capacity (after getting IM), he can add four more Empower Spell feats to his energy drain spell. Four halves is twice the base value, and energy drain drains 2d4 (average 5) levels as its base value, so this would add 10 to the number of levels drained (LD).

Say a jacobean wizard is also working on his epic energy drain, and he's picking up AMC feats as well. Each AMC is worth a -2 mitigation, so in those 12 levels he gains 28 more spell points to play with. So 10 LD = 28 SP, and I am approximating it as 1 LD = 3 SP. To make the beginning value come out right (5 at SP 24) I set the formula as SP = 9 + 3 * levels drained. 8 levels at SP 33. But really the formula should be SP = 10 + 2.8 * LD; 8.2 levels at SP 33.

Say you have a save for half and targets save 50% of the time. Then the expected value is the average of 0.5 and 1; 0.75. Multiply the factor (2.8) times 0.75 and get 2.1. Round it down to 2 and assuming that 1 negative level = -1 CR you get that -1CR = +2SP formula. Specifically you get

SP = 9 + 2 * LD

At SP 33 you do 12 levels, 6 on a successful save.

I don't know if this is any better. But tying this mechanic to saves could only work if saves work properly at epic levels. And I am rather of the opposite opinion. :\

 

[Sepulchrave II]

A couple of random epic feats that have crossed my mind. First, an utterly generic feat which might be better later in a caster's career, when the glam of exponential feats has subsided:


Honed and Tempered [Epic][Epic Magic]
Your epic spellcasting is improved in all aspects.
Prerequisites: Ability to cast epic spells, Knowledge (arcana, religion or nature) 24 ranks, Spellcraft 24 ranks.
Benefits: When you cast any epic spell it gains a +2 modifier to its Save DC, and a +2 bonus to any checks normally dependent on caster level: these include the chance to penetrate an opponent's SR, the chance to dispel an effect, the chance to resist an opponent's dispel, or any other opposed caster level check.


A feat for wicked Favored Souls. Could be extended to clerics, but the FS needs a break. +10 to +12 in factors ([energy] largest potential beneficiary). Selective save penalty rated at +1SP per -1.

Foul Anointed [Epic][Epic Magic]
Your deity has bestowed its darkest favors upon you.
Prerequisites: Spell Revelation, Knowledge (religion) 24 ranks, Spellcraft 24 ranks, ability to spontaneously cast 9th-level divine spells, evil alignment.
Benefits: Any epic spell which you cast automatically gains the [Evil] descriptor, and all creatures of Good alignment incur a -4 penalty on their Saving Throws to resist it. If the spell deals hit point damage, all of the damage is [divine] damage: it is not subject to resistance from protection from energy or similar spells.


Re: 2ndary dispel

I'm ok with the first part of this, but I think that the factor in an epic spell to overcome a generic immunity is about +8, not +12. And it doesn't involve [dispel].

I was thinking in terms of negating all of the magical protections on a targeted creature, rather than simply suppressing a ward for 1 round.


Edit: scratched vile damage from Foul Anointed, in view of many valid objections. Prereqs reduced: available as 2nd epic feat.

 

[Cheiromancer]

I don't like the rules about vile damage. I can never remember how vile damage applies to undead, [evil] outsiders, evil creatures in general, etc. Or whether it is just magical healing that is impeded, or natural healing too. Or what if it is vile nonlethal damage? (i.e. suffered by a creature with regeneration). And I don't like the absolute condition as to how and when they can be healed. And how are you pricing it anyway?

I think a variant of the rules for mummy rot would work better. Plus you could make it OGC.

But this reminds me; we have to cost ability damage one of these days. Although I don't think we've got our damage curves quite sorted out. [energy] and [destroy] and all that. If we are going to use UK's AMC and MF feats, then a krustean spellcaster will be getting exponential returns on his spells. I think UK has feats that allow PCs to change all their hit dice to higher values, and to get maximum hit points per die. That section of the IH is kinda rough though. But UK recognizes that at high levels the damage outstrips character hit points.

Hopefully by then people will have their contingent mass momento vitae spells all ready to go; maybe we should go with your version of the [life] seed after all.

 

[Cheiromancer]

The energy blast seed

Seed: Energy Blast
Evocation [Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire, Force, or Sonic]

Root Spell: Delayed blast fireball, lightning bolt
Spellcraft Prerequisite: 24
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 1200 ft.
Area or Effect: A 120 ft. line, or a 20-ft. radius spread
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes

This seed uses whichever one of four energy types the caster chooses: acid, cold, electricity, or fire. The caster can cast the energy forth as a line or a spread. The default values for energy type and area may be set during spell development, but can be changed at the moment of spellcasting to one of the options just mentioned.
Factor: If you have eliminated this element of flexibility, reduce the Spellcraft Prerequisite by 4.
Factors: The caster may choose to develop a spell which defaults to another type of damaging energy. The options and the associated costs are as follows:

• Sonic energy (+4 SP). The spell receives the [sonic] descriptor.
• Slashing, piercing or bludgeoning (+6 SP). This damage bypasses Damage Reduction. To have the spell damage interact with Damage Reduction as a magical weapon of the appropriate type, reduce the SP modifier to +4. If the damage will be treated as a non-magical weapon of the appropriate type, reduce the SP modifier to +2.
• Force damage (+6 SP). The spell receives the [force] descriptor. Force damage affects incorporeal and ethereal creatures, but not objects; to include objects, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by an additonal +1.
• Aligned damage (+8 SP). The spell gains an alignment descriptor that matches one component of the caster's alignment (good, evil, chaotic, lawful). If two descriptors are possible, the caster may choose; true neutral casters may not choose this option. Creatures of an opposed alignment have a -2 penalty to their saving throws. The damage is retains its energy type but is considered divine and is thus not subject to energy resistance or immunity; vulnerable creatures will still get extra damage, however.
• Typeless (+8). The spell loses the energy descriptor. The damage is of no particular type, and is not subject to resistance or energy immunity.

A spell developed using the [energy] seed releases a bolt or spread which deals 25d6 points of damage of the appropriate energy type, and all in the spell’s Area must make a Reflex save for half damage. If a line is chosen, it begins at the caster’s fingertips; a spread begins as a pellet of energy which detonates at a distance determined by the caster, unless it strikes some intervening body or barrier, in the same manner as a fireball.

Factor: Delay (special). To delay the effect of the spell, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +1 for every 2 rounds (or fraction thereof) that the spell can be delayed. See delayed blast fireball for details.
Factor: Cannot be Raised (+1 SP). You may increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +1 to ensure that the bodies of those slain by the spell are damaged in such a way that renders raise dead (but not resurrection) ineffective. The flavor of this effect is specified to harmonize with the type of damage dealt. One spell might cause the bodies to burn to ashes, another will cause them to shatter into icy fragments, and so on.
Factor: Death Magic (-3 SP). The spell gains the [death] descriptor, and only works against living creatures. Creatures slain by death magic cannot be raised (the Cannot be Raised factor is included; don't purchase it separately).
Factors: The damage done by the spell can be modified by the following factors:

• (+1 SP) Increase the base damage by +1d6. This factor stacks.
• (+6 SP) Empower. Increase the damage by 50% of the base value. This factor stacks; every +12 SP doubles the base damage (remember that a double double is a triple).
• (+9 SP) Maximize. The spell does damage equal to the maximum value that can be rolled as base damage. The benefit of this factor is separate from Empower; an empowered maximized spell deals points of damage equal to the maximum result plus one-half the normally rolled result. This feat stacks with itself; each time it is added the spell deals an amount of damage equal to the maximum possible base damage.
• (+2 SP) Skew. Double the damage on a failed save, but reduce the damage done on a successful save to 5 dice. This reduction undoes any effects which increase the base damage by a number of dice or by a multiple or percentage (such as Empower). The damage done on a successful save may, however, be maximized.

The discardable flexibility provision assumes that there is a base 8th level spell (SP 20) with a damage cap of 25d6. This hypothetical spell is otherwise like a fireball, and is the basis of the seed. It's also the base spell for krustean spellcasters and their AMC feats.

The inflated values for Empower and Maximize were mandated by a comparison of jacobian and krustean spellcasters (see below). Various intuitions converged on these results.

The energy type factors might use some tinkering. Aligned damage is helpful against various outsiders with specialized regeneration; I debated whether to allow it to arcane casters (it has a divine feel) but I thought the matching-alignment restriction would be enough. I was thinking of including this factor:

• Positive/negative energy (+8 SP). The spell loses its energy descriptor. Objects are not harmed by positive/negative energy. Undead are vulnerable to positive energy (they take half again as much (+50%) damage as normal from the effect, as if it was empowered) but are healed by negative energy.

Disintegrate can be modeled by a skewed, typeless, individualized [energy blast]. (The area => one creature factor of -6 SP should be a standard factor. Should I include it in the list anyway?) Finger of death can be modeled by a maximized death magic disintegrate. I therefore suggest that the [slay] and [destroy] seeds be folded into [energy blast] under the death magic and skew factors, respectively. Clerics for whom [slay] or [destroy] is appropriate may get access to the relevant part of the [energy blast] seed, of course; this access would be similar to fire clerics getting access to [fire] spells but not other types.

To see how krustean and jacobian casters compare, suppose that a 39th level krustean sorcerer takes Improved Metamagic, Automatic Metamagic Capacity x 11 and Enhance Spell as his epic feats. Assuming an 8th level 25d6 spell as a base, he will be able to add 12 levels of metamagic if he uses his 9th level spell slots (of which he has 8 if he is a sorcerer with a 39 charisma). Enhance uses 4 levels, and 4 Empowers uses the rest (105d6 damage). The jacobean sorcerer might have Spell Revelation x 2, Epic Spell Capacity x 3 and 8 AMC, and has 38 SP to play with (42 base + 16 from AMC, and a seed of 20 SP assuming the flexible casting provision is discarded to free up 4 SP.) 6 Empowers will use 36 points, and +2 will increase the base damage to 27d6. That'll be 104d6.

[edit]Bad math. He's better to use 4 empowers for 24 points and raise the base damage by +14 to 39d6. Then the total would be 3 * 39d6 = 117d6. Better than parity. In view of later remarks, this is too good.

The jacobian sorcerer can thus match the krustean sorcerer in damage output, and has the same number of spell slots for these top-drawer fireballs. A jacobian wizard has one less epic spell slot than krustean wizard has 9th level spell slots, but probably has more flexibility in his epic spells than the krustean wizard can manage with his metamagically enhanced non-epic spells. Of course, the krustean wizard can better use those non-epic spells (11 AMC vs 8). However, while the krustean wizard has used up all the 9th level spell slots, the jacobian wizard still has all his. The two are pretty comparable, I think.

[edit]Actually, I don't think this will work. The use of Empower and Maximize has to be scaled back, if it is allowed at all.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Basic Ideas

This post is to reiterate the basic divisions in arcane/divine and prepared/spontaneous as floated so far. I've been wondering specifically about druids, and how they fit into the big picture. It seems to me that they should get partial access to many seeds (using a broad interpretation of 'natural').

Because of the way that magic is split, we have a number of choices:

1) We engineer a single feat ('Epic Spellcasting') which has a number of different subsections, decribing how each specific track (arcane vs. divine; prepared vs. spontaneous) benefits from the feat. If this is one feat, it will be somewhat unwieldy. As it would be the defining feat for epic magic, this might be less of a concern than it would be otherwise.

2) We engineer two feats (either 'Epic Divine Spellcasting' vs. 'Epic Arcane Spellcasting' or 'Epic Spontaneous Spellcasting' (Epic Spell Revelation) vs. 'Epic Prepared Spellcasting.') Each feat would then be split into sections decribing how different approaches would work within it. We'd need to think of cooler names as well.

3) We contrive a number of feats: one for wizards, one for clerics, one for sorcerers, one for druids and maybe one for spontaneous divine casters.

We need to think about how we want multiclassing to work within these limits as well, and if we go with a multi-feat approach, it will also have ramifications on Mystic Theurge type classes.

I'm going to float a multi-feat idea, but I'm not sold on it. Each feat has the benefit of conciseness, and together they disambiguate the whole mess. Many subsequent [epic magic] feats that currently have Epic Spellcasting as a prerequisite would need to be changed to 'ability to cast epic spells,' but that's not such a big deal. Others would be split along arcane/divine or prepared/spontaneous lines.


Epic Wizardry [Epic][Epic Magic]
You may develop epic arcane spells, which you prepare and cast in the same manner as a wizard.
Prerequisites: Knowledge (arcana) 24 ranks, Spellcraft 24 ranks, ability to prepare and cast 9th-level arcane spells.
Benefit: You gain 1 epic spell slot. You may develop and cast epic arcane spells using any combination of seeds; epic spells which you develop in this fashion are prepared in the same manner as a wizard's nonepic spells, but you do not need a spellbook.
Special: This feat may be taken more than once. Each time you take it, you gain another epic spell slot. Each time you take this feat, the number of prerequisite Spellcraft ranks increases by +3.


Epic Sorcery [Epic][Epic Magic]
You may develop epic arcane spells, which you cast in the same manner as a sorcerer, using any open epic slot.
Prerequisites: Spellcraft 24 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 24 ranks, ability to spontaneously cast 9th level arcane spells.
Benefit: You gain 2 epic spell slots. Choose one seed: you have intuited an understanding of its inner workings, and may develop epic arcane spells with it. The total number of epic spells which you know cannot exceed the number of epic spell slots which you possess.
Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Each time you take it, you gain insight into another seed and gain two more epic spell slots. Each time you take this feat, the number of prerequisite Spellcraft ranks increases by +3.
Special: You may develop compound spells (epic spells which manipulate more than one seed) provided that you possess the Epic Sorcery feat with regard to all of the seeds involved.


Epic Theurgy [Epic][Epic Magic]
You may develop epic divine spells, which you prepare and cast in the same manner as a cleric.
Prerequisites: Knowledge (religion) 24 ranks, Spellcraft 24 ranks, ability to prepare and cast 9th-level divine spells, ability to turn or rebuke undead.
Benefit: You gain 1 epic spell slot. You may develop and cast epic divine spells which use the [summon] and [call] seeds without penalty, provided that they target creatures of your alignment, your deity's alignment, or creatures otherwise directly associated with your deity. You may also develop and cast epic spells using seeds which reflect your ability to channel positive or negative energy:

• If you use positive energy to turn undead, you may develop and cast epic spells which use the [life], [heal] and [create] seeds.
• If you use negative energy to rebuke undead, you may develop and cast epic spells which use the [afflict], [harrow] and [slay] seeds.

A spell which you develop which includes a seed which does not meet these criteria is known as 'nonassociated.' Spells developed with nonassociated seeds incur a +20 modifier to the spell's Spellcraft Prerequisite.
Special: This feat may be taken more than once. Each time you take it, you gain another epic spell slot. Each time you take this feat, the number of prerequisite Spellcraft ranks increases by +3.


Epic Druidry [Epic][Epic Magic]
You may develop epic divine spells, which you prepare and cast in the same manner as a druid.
Prerequisites: Knowledge (nature) 24 ranks, Spellcraft 24 ranks, ability to prepare and cast 9th-level divine spells, wildshape class ability.
Benefit: You gain 1 epic spell slot. You may develop and cast epic divine spells which reflect your affinity with nature without penalty:

• You may develop and cast spells which use the [awaken], [fortify creature] and [weather] seeds.
• You may develop and cast spells using the [call], [compel] or [summon] seeds without penalty, provided that they target animals, magical beasts, feys, plant creatures, vermin or elementals.
• You may develop and cast spells using the [polymorph] seed without penalty, provided that it effects a transformation into an animal, magical beast, fey, plant creature, vermin or elemental.
• You may develop and cast spells using any aspect of the [energy] seed except [force] effects.

A spell which you develop which includes a seed which does not meet these criteria is known as 'nonassociated.' Spells developed with nonassociated seeds incur a +20 modifier to the spell's Spellcraft Prerequisite.
Special: This feat may be taken more than once. Each time you take it, you gain another epic spell slot. Each time you take this feat, the number of prerequisite Spellcraft ranks increases by +3


Edit: I'm nervous about the sorcerer progression, but I'd like to give them two slots off the bat. Perhaps if each subsequent Epic Sorcery feat after the first were to grant only +1 epic slot, and Epic Spell Capacity were retained. I dunno.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Honed and Tempered

I keep reading that as Horned and Tempered. We need a "Horned and Bad-Tempered" feat that a particularly grumpy fiend (or minotaur) might take.

My dyslexia aside, that seems to be a good power level an overall feat. Up to +6 SP versus opponents with troubling saves and SR, which too many opponents are. The other bonuses provide a nice niche benefit.

Edit: scratched vile damage from Foul Anointed, in view of many valid objections.

Probably for the best. I'd love to see a nice OGC variant for vile damage, though. I agree on your pricing for selective damage reduction.

I was considering the respective daily resources available to the conventional disintegrator and the destroy seed specialist, and it occurred to me that, by 39th level - with 13 epic feats under his belt - the destroy seed specialist can be churning out 11 really nasty epic spells per day: assuming that it takes two feats to purchase the 'augmentation' of destroy to its highest power (8d6/+1), and the remaining feats are spent on additional epic spell slots.

[General Edit in view of lousy math]:

These spells won't be (quite) of the magnitude of vengeful gaze of god, but even with no mitigation and an SP of 42 we're still talking up to 11 x 368d6 (1288hp) epic disintegrates. My initial feeling was 'OMG, that has to be way overpowered.' It is somewhat.

In contrast, by level 39, the caster who has decided to go the metamagicked nonepic disintegrate route can now fill 9th through 14th-level spell slots with Intensified disintegrates - this caster has 23 x 480hp disintegrates available through the course of the day. If he switches out one of his Multispell feats for Improved Heighten Spell, he can also match the DC of the epic disintegrate on two of these, and have somewhat more competitive DCs on many more. Or he can Quicken a bunch of them.

[Edit]: This weighs in at 14,168 damage (epic disintegrate vs 11,040 damage (metamagicked nonepic disintegrate).

The conventional caster is burning all of his 9th-level slots to achieve this in addition to his 10th+ slots - which the epic caster is not.

You posted this on September 11 (post 123 of this thread). With [energy blast] as I propose, it seems that a 39th level jacobian sorcerer can use a tripled (+24) skewed (+2) typeless (+8) base 35d6 (+10) individualized (-6) inflexible (-4) energy blast to do 210d6 on a failed save. (735 hp) That's a SP 58 spell, right? He can do this 8 times a day for a total potential damage of 5,880 hp.

Just to check for parity, the krustean sorcerer could deploy 14 levels of metamagic on a disintegrate (3 from using a 9th level slot, +11 for AMC); 1 enhancement for +4 and 5 empowers is +2.5, so it does 60d6 * 3.5 = 210d6. Also 735 hp 8 times a day, for 5880 hp.

Of course he can use his 8th level slots (maximize +3 + enhance +4 + triple empower +6) = +2 higher spell slot + 11 AMC) for 360 hp + 60d6 * 1.5 = 675 hp. But the jacobian caster can use his 9th level slots for disintegrates too (11 total levels; maximize and 4 empowers, say - he doesn't know Enhance Spell) for 240 hp + 40d6 * 2 = 520 hp. Not too shabby, but the conventional caster is better.

Anyway, the damage dealt by these epic casters is more modest than last month's version; 735 is only 62% of 1168, and the total damage per day (5880) is only 41% of the previous version's 14,168. We've done good work!

I'm not sure how Metannihilator and Herald of the Eschaton would work in this system. We introduced them to ensure parity with conventional casters, but that's not necessary anymore. And they do have a fundamental weakness, namely that they require their opponents to fail their saving throws, and that doesn't happen often enough.

On the other hand, their names are too cool for them to be discarded. And we do have the precedent of giving large bonuses via a feat to a particular seed. How about this:

Metannihilator [Epic][Epic Magic]
Prerequisites: Epic Spellcasting, Empower Spell, Spellcraft 30 ranks, ability to cast disintegrate as an arcane or domain spell.
Benefit: Your base damage when devising and casting epic spells which contain the [energy blast] seed is increased to 40d6. If you use factors to further increase the damage of the spell, you gain +2d6 to the damage delivered by the spell for each +1 increase in the Spellcraft Prerequisite. Furthermore, all creatures killed by your [energy blast] spells are so marred by the energies involved that raise dead cannot be employed; only a few fragments of the body survive.

Herald of the Eschaton [Epic][Epic Magic]
Prerequisites: Epic Spellcasting, Metannihilator, Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, Spellcraft 42 ranks, ability to cast disintegrate as an arcane or domain spell.
Benefit: When you use the Maximize and Empower factors on a spell which uses [energy blast] as the base seed, the benefits combine, and the resulting spell does maximum damage on all dice.
Normal: An empowered, maximized spell normally gains the separate benefits of each factor: the maximum result plus one-half the normally rolled result.

Since the schools are kinda blurred (evocation for fireball, transmutation for disintegrate) I'm a little leery about requiring Spell Focus. I'm not sure.

Metannihilator gives +16 up front (+15 to increase the base damage, and the Cannot be Raised factor). The rest of the benefits accrue after you have the seed is doubly empowered (base damage x2 damage) for a cost of +12 SP. Only then does it makes sense to spend +6 SP to get +12d6 (x2) rather than another 50% of the base value (of 40d6).

This version of Herald of the Eschaton gives a Maximize factor (+9 SP value) for every two Empower Factors that are added (+12 SP value). And of course you have to have included an initial Maximize (+9) in the mix. It's a very good feat (more than +30 SP value) when you can cast USP 75+ spells.

Taking either of these feats means one less AMC, of course, which has a huge overall utility. That's the main opportunity cost, I think.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Re: Epic Theurgy

I'm wondering if Epic Thaumaturgy would be a better name. Either name is potentially confusing, but I think that Mystic Theurges are better known than Thaumaturgists, and so theurgy should be avoided except in the context of arcane/divine multiclassing. It's no big deal either way.

Something else that occurs to me with respect to Epic Theurgy is that some clerics probably have the ability to channel both positive and negative energy. At least I seem to recall drafting feats to that end. For example:

[sblock]Morally Flexible [General]
One cannot live fully in the light by denying the darkness, but only by transcending it.
Prerequisites: Access to Good and Evil domains, cannot have the good or evil subtype.
Benefit: For the purpose of spells and effects you count as good, evil or morally neutral, whichever is most favorable to you. When you turn undead, you may choose to rebuke undead instead, and vice versa. When you spontaneously cast a cure spell, you may cast an inflict spell instead, and vice versa. You do not have an aura of good or evil, even if you are a cleric or an outsider. The moral component of your alignment, when magically discerned, is always neutral.
Special: Morally flexible characters who also have the Heretical feat may ignore moral (good/evil) prerequisites and class requirements without penalty.

This is the Heretical feat referred to:

Heretical [General]
The character's actions reflect either a profound but unusual personal philosophy, or a talent for hypocrisy.
Benefit: The character chooses a target alignment (which may be the same as the character’s actual alignment) and either the moral (good/evil) or ethical (law/chaos) axis. The character gains a +2 morale bonus to Charisma and Wisdom based skill checks when interacting with creatures of the target alignment. Furthermore, the character’s alignment and actions count as being one step closer to the target alignment along the chosen axis. For example, a heretical cleric might choose lawful good as the target alignment along the ethical axis. Although the cleric’s true alignment might be chaotic good, the character will count as neutral good as far as a lawful good divine patron is concerned.
Note: If a character has the heretical feat, the target alignment and the morals/ethics axis should be noted in parentheses. For a neutral good paladin the feat would be annotated “heretical (lawful good ethics)” This indicates the primary benefit of the feat (the character counts as one step closer to lawful good on the law/chaos axis).

Of course, you need a method of getting both the good and evil domains. I think an epic feat would allow it. But probably you'd want Sectarian + Extra Domain:

Sectarian (General feat)
Not all truths are unequal.
You have unusual insights into your religion.
Pre-requisites: Knowledge (Religion) 4 ranks.
Benefit: You meet the special prerequisite for the Extra Domain feat. Furthermore, you may select the extra domain from any of the domains available in your game world. You may even have opposed alignment domains, but only if your alignment is neutral between them. If you choose a domain that is opposed to one that is normally offered by your deity (e.g. you worship a fire deity and choose the Water domain) you must already have the other domain.

Extra Domain (General feat)
Saizho.
You gain access to an extra domain.
Prerequisites: Access to at least two domains, Special.
Benefit: Choose one of your current domains. You may select another domain according to the same rules you selected that one. You gain access to its domain spells and granted power unless otherwise noted.
Special: You may take this feat only if it is specifically allowed by another rule (e.g. the description of a template, feat or class ability). You may take this feat once only unless specified otherwise.

The normal way of unlocking Extra Domain is through Aspirant:

Aspirant (General feat)
Not all things are revealed to me.
You aspire to greater spiritual knowledge.
Benefit: You meet the special prerequisite for the Extra Domain feat. Gain a +2 insight bonus on Knowledge (Religion) checks.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Each selection allows you to take Extra Domain one additional time and increases the Knowledge (Religion) bonus by +1.[/sblock]
Even without these, it seems like the kind of ability that someone might acquire through a feat or prestige class. Characters with this ability would thus get a substantial bonus when they acquire the ability to cast epic spells. Of course, if it requires elaborate feat chains like the ones I describe, they probably deserve the bonus.

Re: Epic Druidry

I'd specify that [energy] is acid, cold, electricity fire and sonic only. Although acid is debatable. That's in case a whole lot of other energy types get folded into [energy].

We're going to have to return to the question of non-instantaneous energy effects; the walls and incendiary clouds and such. [energy field] would be a good name; it and [energy blast] would be the principal sub-seeds of the very important [energy] seed.

And we should consider [poison] at some time, too. That has a druidic feel; disease, too is part of the natural order. Some kind of awaken and/or reincarnation themed seed. These are probably best approached through special feats; epic druids have enough to keep them occupied with the defaults you list.

Edit: I'm nervous about the sorcerer progression, but I'd like to give them two slots off the bat. Perhaps if each subsequent Epic Sorcery feat after the first were to grant only +1 epic slot, and Epic Spell Capacity were retained. I dunno.

I honestly don't know whether people are going to try to get a lot of AMC feats and a few Epic Spell slots, or the other way around. Or how constrained non-wizards are going to feel by their lack of seed access. I suspect that people are going to only have a few epic spell slots, and they aren't going to spend many feats to get access to seeds. So I think you should amend Epic Sorcery so that subsequent choices only yield +1 epic spell slot, and retain Epic Spell Capacity. An alternative would be to make the increase in prerequisite more burdensome (+6 spellcraft instead of +3), and include some minor benefit in Epic Spell Capacity. e.g. "Choose one impromptu factor: you may apply it once per day to an epic spell you cast. Every time you take this feat you may choose another impromptu factor, or you may gain an additional use of an impromptu factor you already have. This ability cannot be used to apply two or more impromptu factors to the same spell."

 

[Sepulchrave II]

OK.

Seed: Energy Blast
Evocation [Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire, Force, or Sonic]

Root Spell: Delayed blast fireball, lightning bolt
Spellcraft Prerequisite: 24
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 1200 ft.
Area or Effect: A 120 ft. line, or a 20-ft. radius spread
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes

This seed uses whichever one of four energy types the caster chooses: acid, cold, electricity, or fire. The caster can cast the energy forth as a line or a spread. The default values for energy type and area may be set during spell development, but can be changed at the moment of spellcasting to one of the options just mentioned.
Factor: If you have eliminated this element of flexibility, reduce the Spellcraft Prerequisite by 4.
Factors: The caster may choose to develop a spell which defaults to another type of damaging energy. The options and the associated costs are as follows:

• Sonic energy (+4 SP). The spell receives the [sonic] descriptor.
• Slashing, piercing or bludgeoning (+6 SP). This damage bypasses Damage Reduction. To have the spell damage interact with Damage Reduction as a magical weapon of the appropriate type, reduce the SP modifier to +4. If the damage will be treated as a non-magical weapon of the appropriate type, reduce the SP modifier to +2.
• Force damage (+6 SP). The spell receives the [force] descriptor. Force damage affects incorporeal and ethereal creatures, but not objects; to include objects, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by an additonal +1.
• Aligned damage (+8 SP). The spell gains an alignment descriptor that matches one component of the caster's alignment (good, evil, chaotic, lawful). If two descriptors are possible, the caster may choose; true neutral casters may not choose this option. Creatures of an opposed alignment have a -2 penalty to their saving throws. The damage is retains its energy type but is considered divine and is thus not subject to energy resistance or immunity; vulnerable creatures will still get extra damage, however.
• Typeless (+8). The spell loses the energy descriptor. The damage is of no particular type, and is not subject to resistance or energy immunity.

A spell developed using the [energy] seed releases a bolt or spread which deals 25d6 points of damage of the appropriate energy type, and all in the spell’s Area must make a Reflex save for half damage. If a line is chosen, it begins at the caster’s fingertips; a spread begins as a pellet of energy which detonates at a distance determined by the caster, unless it strikes some intervening body or barrier, in the same manner as a fireball.

Factor: Delay (special). To delay the effect of the spell, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +1 for every 2 rounds (or fraction thereof) that the spell can be delayed. See delayed blast fireball for details.

I absolutely concur with everything you've written to this point. I especially like the aligned damage option.

Factor: Cannot be Raised (+1 SP). You may increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +1 to ensure that the bodies of those slain by the spell are damaged in such a way that renders raise dead (but not resurrection) ineffective. The flavor of this effect is specified to harmonize with the type of damage dealt. One spell might cause the bodies to burn to ashes, another will cause them to shatter into icy fragments, and so on.
Factor: Death Magic (-3 SP). The spell gains the [death] descriptor, and only works against living creatures. Creatures slain by death magic cannot be raised (the Cannot be Raised factor is included; don't purchase it separately).

This is where I start to have problems. I don't want to fold [slay] (or [destroy], for that matter) into [energy]. My objection to [slay] is the same as my resistance to making true resurrection CR dependent - namely that they are absolute effects (zap, you're dead vs. bing, you're OK).

My objection is ultimately philosophical. I am firmly in the unfashionable, anti-progressive camp as far as this goes, but I do believe there is a place for 'save or die' effects, and amongst the seeds, [slay] should be it. I invoke the sacred cow, in all its bovine glory.

Factors: The damage done by the spell can be modified by the following factors:

• (+1 SP) Increase the base damage by +1d6. This factor stacks.

Ok so far.

• (+6 SP) Empower. Increase the damage by 50% of the base value. This factor stacks; every +12 SP doubles the base damage (remember that a double double is a triple).
• (+9 SP) Maximize. The spell does damage equal to the maximum value that can be rolled as base damage. The benefit of this factor is separate from Empower; an empowered maximized spell deals points of damage equal to the maximum result plus one-half the normally rolled result. This feat stacks with itself; each time it is added the spell deals an amount of damage equal to the maximum possible base damage.

I'm sceptical about this creep of exponential factors available to players which I'm experiencing. I'm OK with them in mitigation, but dubious about them otherwise. Generally, I'd prefer to use feats to accomplish big power-ups. YMOV.

(+2 SP) Skew. Double the damage on a failed save, but reduce the damage done on a successful save to 5 dice. This reduction undoes any effects which increase the base damage by a number of dice or by a multiple or percentage (such as Empower). The damage done on a successful save may, however, be maximized.

This is just to make [destroy] fit within the metaseed, right?

I dunno, Cheiro. I want to keep [destroy] and [slay] because, basically, I don't want them to lose their identity. I don't want them subsumed within some generic seed, because their uniqueness (felt, if not mechanically evidenced) is lost: they deserve their own seeds. They are archetypal effects within the realm of D&Disms. If my attachment is sentimental, then so be it.

 

[Cheiromancer]

I want to keep [destroy] and [slay] because, basically, I don't want them to lose their identity. I don't want them subsumed within some generic seed, because their uniqueness (felt, if not mechanically evidenced) is lost: they deserve their own seeds. They are archetypal effects within the realm of D&Disms. If my attachment is sentimental, then so be it.

I'm OK with that. I am arguing the truth of the fundamental unity of these seeds, but, as you've stated eloquently, different orders of truth are possible, and even desirable. Besides, if we sacrifice everything for a greater unity, we'll probably end up with the formula 1 CR = 2 SP. And how much fun would that be?

Skew and death magic should definitely be dropped, then. And probably Cannot be Raised as well. Although I do like the idea of a fire that totally consumes its victims, such a thing would probably be a compound seed involving [destroy] as a descriptive seed.

I'm sceptical about this creep of exponential factors available to players which I'm experiencing. I'm OK with them in mitigation, but dubious about them otherwise. Generally, I'd prefer to use feats to accomplish big power-ups.

Well, this is entirely to parallel what the conventional casters are doing. The metamagic using 39th level character has no specialized feats at all (except Enhance Spell- but it contributes maybe 5% of the final damage); it's basically all AMC. There is room for all kinds of specialized feats for particular power-ups, but I wanted these ultra-generic casters to be balanced against each other, to have a playing field as level as possible. And to do that there needs to be exponential factors.

You could say that there is no way for a jacobean caster with generic feats to keep up with a conventional caster with generic feats, but I'm not sure why you would want to do that. You could also outlaw AMC, but that kind of hobbles the conventional caster. I think allowing these exponential factors is the best option.