Epic Questions

[The Spectrum Rider]

I'm trying to puzzle out some issues about epic-level characters using the 3.5 DMG. I have the ELH, but it's not 3.5-compliant, of course.

The DMG describes the Epic Barbarian (more than 20 levels of barbarian), Epic Bard (more than 20 levels of bard), and so on, pretty well. And it has a paragraph about what happens when one of those characters adds a level of some other class. But there's not much discussion about multiclass epic characters none of whose individual class levels is above 20.

For example, consider a fighter 16/wizard 4. He takes a level of wizard, making him a fighter 16/wizard 5, and taking him into the epic rules.

DMG., pg. 207, discussing what happens to class features in the epic relam, says "...a character's spells per day don't increase after 20th level."

I ASSUME that means "after 20th level in the particular spellcasting class," and that in my example the character's spells per day would increase, just like any character who goes from 4th level wizard to 5th level wizard. But it's hard to tell from the text. Am I right?

Also: if you create a monster with, for example, 30 HD dice (and, so far, no class levels), do the epic level rules apply when determining the monster's BAB and base save bonuses? That is, do you start by giving it appropriate BAB's and BSB's for a 20-HD monster, and then apply the remaining 10 HD as though you were advancing an epic character?

Or do you just set the BAB and BSB directly, based on 30 HD (the tables don't go up that high, but you can work out a formula based on level), and then start using the epic rules only if and when that creature gets his first class level? And, how does the monster's LA fit into these calculations?

Thank you for your help.

The Spectrum Rider

 

[Crothian]

You are right with the spells part. The spell chart maxes out at 20th caster level, not 20th character level. As to the monster part, it's a very grey area. Personally, I'd use the LA to determine if the characters first levels was considered epic.

 

[Thresher]

Its maybe not the best trying to work out a 30HD critter off the bat. An elder Titan's CL is about that if I remember.

hmm, ok lets look at something a wee bit smaller.

Say, an Erinyes.
At the top there it says-
Hit Dice: 9D8+bits
And a bit further down it says-
Level Adjustment: +7

Now, as a character its a CL 16. If Miz Erinyes decided to take on 5 levels of rogue after finishing off the levels of being a fiend, then she's an epic critter and can take epic feats, BaB and saves etc as an epic level creature.
Why Wotc use this weird bloody system I dont know.

As for just using monsters adjusted as epic critters for PC's to bash as walking vestibules of Xp, I just dont know. Actually, Im pretty sure most of the people that threw the books together have NFI either so what Im assuming is that critter has over 21HD, you could make it an epic beastie with feats etc.

I honestly do not know, I couldnt see it anywhere in a brief perusal of the rules in the ELH.

yeah... good one Thresher, youve just made someone even more confused..

 

[Li Shenron]

Warning: I don't have the Epic Level Handbook and I am not a fan of epic campaigns...

I think this is how it works:

- you are right that spellcasting in a single class improved until CLASS level 20th, even if the CHARACTER level is already epic (above 20th)

- BAB and saves instead stop improving by class levels once the character level hits 21st, and from there on they follow the epic progression (no extra attacks/round and epic BAB / epic BSB improves by character level and not class level - that is, independently from the class)

- a monster with 21+ HD follows the same rules as a character with 21+ level, that is after the first 20 HD the BAB and saves improves always by +1 every 2 levels, and no more attacks/round (this is changed from 3.0 where the Solar got 5 attacks/round)*

- Level Adjustment plays no part in the above process, only HD are used to determine if the monster has already moved into epic progression

edit: of course I aready found I am wrong If you look at the Red Dragon for example, at 40HD it has +40 BAB. Forget about the part with *

 

[Pax]

You are right with the spells part. The spell chart maxes out at 20th caster level, not 20th character level. As to the monster part, it's a very grey area. Personally, I'd use the LA to determine if the characters first levels was considered epic.

That is, in fact, the RULE ... misworded nonsense in teh rDMG notwithstanding. By the Errata's own first entry ... the ELH should be considered the "primary source" for all epic characters, except where contradicted by the REvision Booklet's entries on ELH material.

And the ELH sidebar, on page 23 or 25 IIRC, says that ECL is what determines "epic or not".

 

[Pax]

- BAB and saves instead stop improving by class levels once the character level hits 21st, and from there on they follow the epic progression (no extra attacks/round and epic BAB / epic BSB improves by character level and not class level - that is, independently from the class)

BAB stops accumulating at character level 21, not class level 21. A Fighter(20)/Barbarban(20) only has a BAB of +20 (along with an Epic Attack Bonus of +10).

- a monster with 21+ HD follows the same rules as a character with 21+ level, that is after the first 20 HD the BAB and saves improves always by +1 every 2 levels, and no more attacks/round (this is changed from 3.0 where the Solar got 5 attacks/round)*

The ELH is the primary source.

- Level Adjustment plays no part in the above process, only HD are used to determine if the monster has already moved into epic progression

Again, the ELH is the primary source for anything and everything Epic, and on this front, it definitely disagrees with the rDMG: ECL is what determines Epic or not, not purely your Hit Dice.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Except, of course, that the ELH arguably has been prospectively overruled in 3.5. According to the 3.5 FAQ, p.2:

When is a monster character considered epic level? Do
you “go epic” when your total class levels equal 20 or when
your total Hit Dice equal 20? Is a monster character eligible
for epic-level feats (such as Epic Toughness) when its
character level is 21+ or when its ECL is 21+?
A monster becomes an epic-level character when its
character level hits 21, just like any other character. A
monster’s character level is equal to its racial Hit Dice + class
levels. (See the second sidebar on page 25 of the Epic Level
Handbook.)
A creature’s ECL has no effect on when it becomes an epic
character, although once it becomes an epic character, its ECL
continues to affect how much experience it earns and when it
can add a new level.

Now, the fact that the FAQ references p.25 of the ELH makes it somewhat suspect. Still, reasonable minds can differ. Urbannen will probably be along to cite an e-mail from WotC custserv to the effect that only HD + class levels count for purposes of determining when a monster becomes "epic."

In any case:
1. Where the rules say "level," unless otherwise specified, they generally mean "class level" rather than "character level." (This is a general rule, not merely confined to discussions of epic levels.)

2. EAB and epic save bonuses apply from character level 21 onward. Epic bonus feats and other "epic" class features apply from class level 21 onwards.

3. Monsters as epic characters: Ehh, who knows. What we do know is that BAB and saves from monster Hit Dice scale indefinitely; in other words, a 40-HD dragon has BAB +40 and base Fort, Ref, and Will saves of +22. However, does a 40-HD dragon who takes a level of fighter get BAB +1, or EAB? Probably the latter. The question is what the break point is for EAB and epic saves. I prefer to use HD + class levels > 20, just because it works for PCs and NPCs alike. As for eligibility for epic feats: I tend to use ECL/CR 21 or higher. True, that IS different for PCs and for NPCs, but since it's a matter of feat choice as opposed to an automatically-assigned mechanic, I'm less bothered by the inconsistency.

 

[Li Shenron]

BAB stops accumulating at character level 21, not class level 21. A Fighter(20)/Barbarban(20) only has a BAB of +20 (along with an Epic Attack Bonus of +10).

It is indeed what I wrote and what you quoted from me...

Again, the ELH is the primary source for anything and everything Epic, and on this front, it definitely disagrees with the rDMG: ECL is what determines Epic or not, not purely your Hit Dice.

I didn't notice this before... here's the quote from SRD: These epic rules work for monsters with character levels, using the creature’s effective character level (ECL) instead of just its class levels. You were right on this.

The real pity of this rule is IMHO that creatures in the MM with 20+ HD DO NOT ALL follow epic advancement after the 20th hit dice (obviously if they have more than 20 HD they also have ECL higher than 20).

Let me try to check some of the MM creatures with 20+ HD... or some with ECL=HD+LA>20.

Nightcrawler
Undead -> BAB = HD/2. HD=25, BAB=+12. This is obviously ok, since it equals the epic progression itself.

Solar
Outsider -> BAB = HD. HD=22, BAB=+22.

Red Dragon, Great Wyrm
Dragon -> BAB = HD. HD=40, BAB =+40.

Tarrasque
Magical Beast -> BAB = HD. HD=48, BAB =+48.

Looks quite clear to me that racial HD don't follow epic progression after 20.

In the MM there is no LA listed for creatures whose LA would make them epic already (ECL 20+) so I cannot check that. Would be interesting to know if monsters as characters should be different than monsters as monsters.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Nightcrawler
Undead -> BAB = HD/2. HD=25, BAB=+12. This is obviously ok, since it equals the epic progression itself.

Solar
Outsider -> BAB = HD. HD=22, BAB=+22.

Red Dragon, Great Wyrm
Dragon -> BAB = HD. HD=40, BAB =+40.

Tarrasque
Magical Beast -> BAB = HD. HD=48, BAB =+48.

Looks quite clear to me that racial HD don't follow epic progression after 20.

Even in the ELH the monsters get BAB for their racial HD; look at the brachyurus, for example. BAB +38 + 10 Str - 1 size + 1 Weapon Focus = +48. If HD gave BAB and EAB, then it would have BAB +20 + 9 EAB + 10 Str - 1 size + 1 Weapon Focus = +39.

The nightcrawler doesn't follow epic progression; it would have BAB +10 and EAB +3 (total +13) if it had 25 levels of wizard progression.

 

[Li Shenron]

Even in the ELH the monsters get BAB for their racial HD; look at the brachyurus, for example. BAB +38 + 10 Str - 1 size + 1 Weapon Focus = +48. If HD gave BAB and EAB, then it would have BAB +20 + 9 EAB + 10 Str - 1 size + 1 Weapon Focus = +39.

The nightcrawler doesn't follow epic progression; it would have BAB +10 and EAB +3 (total +13) if it had 25 levels of wizard progression.

Ah, ok I just halved and rounded down, instead it seems that epic BAB increases every odd level...