Epic saving throws are strange...

[styker]

I was thinking about... epic saving throws are very strange... if you get 19 levels in Wizard and a level in cleric your base save bonus will be fort +13, ref +6, will +13, better than you be a wizard 20 with +12/+06/+12, you are now a wizard 19/cleirc 1, so if you get one level in wizard again (to a total of wizard 20/cleric) your saves still are the same because in epic your class doesn't give the save to you... now other progression... i get 20 levels in wizard (+12/+06/+12 to saves) and a level in cleric in my 21st level and my saves still continue the same... compare these two caracters, they have the same levels in class but diferent saves... how can this be? the same think happens to fighter 20/wizard 20 with four ATACKS and the wizard 20/fighter 20 with TWO atack??? what's going on? any idea how to resolve this???

 

[Infiniti2000]

What's there to resolve? Any 'problem' you see in this is due to the multiclassing weirdness to begin with, it has nothing at all to do with epic levels. For one thing, any Wiz20 that doesn't continue as an epic wizard isn't using all of his Int.

 

[Rkhet]

You could always let the players rearrange their levels to maximum advantage. DM's discretion, as usual.

 

[apesamongus]

You could always let the players rearrange their levels to maximum advantage. DM's discretion, as usual.

Yup, that's what I do. I hate with a burning passion the current epic rules and allowing this is the only thing that makes them playable for me.

 

[Darkness]

Yup, that's what I do. I hate with a burning passion the current epic rules and allowing this is the only thing that makes them playable for me.

Same here - limited to what would have been possible in hindsight, of course.

 

[GrayLinnorm]

You could also "rule zero" that the epic BAB and saving throw bonus apply to CLASS levels over 20, not character levels. That's what I would do.

 

[Ruvion]

I was thinking about... epic saving throws are very strange... if you get 19 levels in Wizard and a level in cleric your base save bonus will be fort +13, ref +6, will +13, better than you be a wizard 20 with +12/+06/+12, you are now a wizard 19/cleirc 1, so if you get one level in wizard again (to a total of wizard 20/cleric) your saves still are the same because in epic your class doesn't give the save to you... now other progression... i get 20 levels in wizard (+12/+06/+12 to saves) and a level in cleric in my 21st level and my saves still continue the same... compare these two caracters, they have the same levels in class but diferent saves... how can this be? the same think happens to fighter 20/wizard 20 with four ATACKS and the wizard 20/fighter 20 with TWO atack??? what's going on? any idea how to resolve this???

Since when did the wizard class get good Fort save progression?
Have I been shafting my wizard?

 

[azmodean]

I really don't see where the problem is, a lvl 20 wizard with 20 epic levels of cleric is obviously different from a wizard19/cleric 1 with 19 epic cleric levels and 1 epic wizard level. This "difference" arises because according to the epic rules as written, epic levels are fundamentally different from "normal" class levels. This is the issue I think most people have problems with, including myself, but it arises because the system just isn't written in a way that maintains balance past lvl 20 (some say past lvl 10, but that's another issue entirely) The epic system has problems, but I think it isn't nearly as bad as the most obvious alternative, continuing normal d20 progression past lvl 20 (lvl 30 fighter with bab of +30/+25/+20/+15/+10/+5, and that's before any of the special things that allow extra attacks, yikes)

In conclusion, yes, the epic system is a kludge, but I really haven't seen anything that handles epic-level d20 better than the system as written (with juditious tweaks, same as the rest of the d20 system)

Concerning re-allocating class levels, I allow it in many circumstances, but not for swapping around epic and non-epic levels to get better bonuses out of the mix.

 

[apesamongus]

You could also "rule zero" that the epic BAB and saving throw bonus apply to CLASS levels over 20, not character levels. That's what I would do.

Do that and you essentially force everyone (all melees at least) to multiclass.

 

[styker]

Ruvion:

Sorry, i make a mistake. the saves of the wizard are 06/06/12.