Epic Spells: Caster Level instead of skills?

[Cloudgatherer]

Just a thought I had. One of the big drawbacks of the Epic Spells in the ELH is their reliance on Knowledge (x) and Spellcraft. The Knowledge ranks provide Epic spell slots, while the Spellcraft is used to determine how powerful a spell one could cast.

Can't this be better handled by using caster level? Replace the number of epic spells by caster level / 10, and make the checks to cast an Epic Spell caster level DCs.

This would bypass attempts to wield +X Spellcraft DC magic items just so one could cast a spell far beyond normal. It would also keep in line the more powerful spellcasters able to cast the more powerful spells (as opposed to who has the biggest bonus to Spellcraft magic item).

Anyway, it's just a thought, but a system could be created modelled after the epic spell system that replaced adjustments to "Spellcraft DCs" with adjustments to a caster level check.

Thoughts, opinions?

 

[Hashmalum]

Just a thought I had. One of the big drawbacks of the Epic Spells in the ELH is their reliance on Knowledge (x) and Spellcraft. The Knowledge ranks provide Epic spell slots, while the Spellcraft is used to determine how powerful a spell one could cast.

This is a drawback if one is a powerplayer, perhaps, as these requirements consume skill points that one could be using to qualify for overpowered PrCs. I, on the other hand, would see it as at least a little strange for a cleric to exist who doesn't know about religion, or a druid who doesn't know about nature, or any spellcaster who doesn't know about spells. I'm of the opinion that a character who doesn't take these skills is just asking for some kind of drawback sooner or later.

Can't this be better handled by using caster level? Replace the number of epic spells by caster level / 10, and make the checks to cast an Epic Spell caster level DCs.

One side-effect that immediately comes to mind is that epic spells will seem, well, less epic since you would effectively be lowering the requirements to use them. Now all that stands between your spellcasters and epic magic is the mere expenditure of a feat slot. The overall power level of your epic level spellcasters will also increase slightly, due to the skill point issue mentioend above.

This would bypass attempts to wield +X Spellcraft DC magic items just so one could cast a spell far beyond normal. It would also keep in line the more powerful spellcasters able to cast the more powerful spells (as opposed to who has the biggest bonus to Spellcraft magic item).

If you're having a problem with +Spellcraft items, then just ban them. They don't even exist in the core rules anyway, and it's well-known that +skill items in general are broken to begin with. Your players will whine just as much if you "screw" them out of power spells by changing the epic casting rules as they would if you just eliminate +Spellcraft items.

Anyway, it's just a thought, but a system could be created modelled after the epic spell system that replaced adjustments to "Spellcraft DCs" with adjustments to a caster level check.

A system could be created, true, and with very little effort (and it has been done before--this is at least the second post on this exact topic in the last month or two), but I still don't understand what sort of problem this is supposed to solve.

 

[ruleslawyer]

If you're having a problem with +Spellcraft items, then just ban them. They don't even exist in the core rules anyway, and it's well-known that +skill items in general are broken to begin with. Your players will whine just as much if you "screw" them out of power spells by changing the epic casting rules as they would if you just eliminate +Spellcraft items.

I think that this is the real concern, and I don't think that it's worthwhile to dismiss it as you have, Hashmalum. +skill items are generally NOT broken, IMHO; in fact, they're often quite necessary to keep some of the skill-monkeys on par with the more magic-centered characters as the game hits higher levels (cloaks of elvenkind and hats of disguise come to mind, for instance). I'm fine with the way in which epic spell slots are given out on the basis of Knowledge skill ranks, but I do have a problem with the fact that the standard means of hitting high epic spell DCs is to boost one's Spellcraft skill check through the roof. I'd love to see a mechanic based on caster level checks.

A system could be created, true, and with very little effort (and it has been done before--this is at least the second post on this exact topic in the last month or two), but I still don't understand what sort of problem this is supposed to solve.

See above. Would you be able to provide a link to a previous post on this subject? I can't find one using search...

 

[ichabod]

This is a drawback if one is a powerplayer, perhaps, as these requirements consume skill points that one could be using to qualify for overpowered PrCs. I, on the other hand, would see it as at least a little strange for a cleric to exist who doesn't know about religion, or a druid who doesn't know about nature, or any spellcaster who doesn't know about spells.

Others of us find it odd that a cleric whose spell casting power has been solely determined by wisdom up til 20th level, suddenly has to become a genius in order to progress any farther. A low int cleric can be a very powerful spellcaster, but as soon as he hits epic levels, he drops behind. Why? It just doesn't seem to make sense.

Me, I dumped the whole system, and just made up 10th+ level spells.

 

[Hashmalum]

Originally posted by Hashmalum
If you're having a problem with +Spellcraft items, then just ban them. They don't even exist in the core rules anyway, and it's well-known that +skill items in general are broken to begin with. Your players will whine just as much if you "screw" them out of power spells by changing the epic casting rules as they would if you just eliminate +Spellcraft items.

I think that this is the real concern, and I don't think that it's worthwhile to dismiss it as you have, Hashmalum.

I don't see how I "dismissed" anything. I didn't say "people who are unhappy with +Spellcraft items are wussies, all real players have them so get used to it". I made a suggestion that I think is less trouble to implement than the caster level-based idea of the initial poster.

+skill items are generally NOT broken, IMHO;

The 3.5 revision team apparently disagrees. +Skill items are being downgraded in 3.5E.

in fact, they're often quite necessary to keep some of the skill-monkeys on par with the more magic-centered characters as the game hits higher levels (cloaks of elvenkind and hats of disguise come to mind, for instance). I'm fine with the way in which epic spell slots are given out on the basis of Knowledge skill ranks, but I do have a problem with the fact that the standard means of hitting high epic spell DCs is to boost one's Spellcraft skill check through the roof. I'd love to see a mechanic based on caster level checks.

But spellcasters ARE magic-centered characters rather than skill-monkeys. They don't NEED items that boost their class skills to keep up. Since +Spellcraft items were never needed to begin with, and cause problems with the epic rules, what is wrong with simply banning them? Even as the rules stand at the moment, it is obvious that not all skill pluses are equally valuable--compare the ring of jumping to the stuff of elvenkind for an example.

Furthermore, one of the problems with +skill items is that they allow any character who has one to effortlessly outshine the aforementioned skill-monkeys in their main area of competence. I recall reading (on the Kargatane board) about the complaints of a rogue who was totally outclassed in terms of Hide skill by the party ranger, who happened to find a ring of chameleon power--despite the fact that the ranger did not put a single skill point into Hide, he was far better at it than the rogue who had maxed out Hide since 1st level. I can certainly see why that bothered him.

A system could be created, true, and with very little effort (and it has been done before--this is at least the second post on this exact topic in the last month or two), but I still don't understand what sort of problem this is supposed to solve.

See above. Would you be able to provide a link to a previous post on this subject? I can't find one using search...

It must have been more than a month ago... My, how time flies. I can't find it either, but I distinctly recall reading it. Unless I am thinking of a different message board, but I read the ENWorld boards almost exclusively, so that's not likely.

 

[Cloudgatherer]

While simply banning items that provide bonuses to skills is an option, I don't think it is such a good one. Even in the ELH there is a +10 Spellcraft rod which would stack with a competence bonus.

Also, you bring up a good point about skills. Usually, they are used to qualify for a PrC or meet a feat requirement. Here, they are used to get and cast spells. This seems a little inconsistent. A cleric can call upon his god (miracle) without having a rank in knowledge or spellcraft, but must have at least 30 to cast epic spells?

Another problem I've seen from using the system is abuse. A player will give himself awesome permanent powers by throwing enough mitagating factors on the spell to reduce the DC to below 10 (I've seen several DC 1 spells). Since the spell is cast out of combat and plenty of time is available, there is no danger.

Another problem with the system is its potential combat use. The damage dealing spells simply don't do it. Even some of the spells I've created on my own in an attempt to find a good "blast" spell don't work out that well. The DC ends up being too high, whereas a caster who can make such a spellcraft check can easily use metamagic to do more damage with a regular spell. Even casting Vengeful Gaze of the Gods, DC 400+ (I forget exactly) doesn't do enough damage to kill a great deal of epic monsters, and you still have to get through spell resistance!

 

[DanMcS]

Others of us find it odd that a cleric whose spell casting power has been solely determined by wisdom up til 20th level, suddenly has to become a genius in order to progress any farther. A low int cleric can be a very powerful spellcaster, but as soon as he hits epic levels, he drops behind. Why? It just doesn't seem to make sense.

You're right, that is odd, why didn't the designers think of that? Wait, wait, they did, there is an option in the book to use the appropriate spellcasting ability score (wis for clerics, cha for sorcerors, etc) instead of int, for epic spellcasting spellcraft checks.

 

[Hashmalum]

While simply banning items that provide bonuses to skills is an option, I don't think it is such a good one. Even in the ELH there is a +10 Spellcraft rod which would stack with a competence bonus.

I never said anything about banning all +skill items. I just suggested that if you find them problematic, that you should ban +Spellcraft items.

Also, you bring up a good point about skills. Usually, they are used to qualify for a PrC or meet a feat requirement. Here, they are used to get and cast spells. This seems a little inconsistent. A cleric can call upon his god (miracle) without having a rank in knowledge or spellcraft, but must have at least 30 to cast epic spells?

Epic spells don't work the same way as spells with levels. Levelled spells come "pre-fabbed", but epic spells are something that you have to weave together yourself. Logically this should take much skill and knowledge; keep in mind that it takes Spellcraft to create even a new levelled spell. When you reach epic levels, there just aren't as many people who have trod the same road before you and things aren't systematized and codified. The necessary knowledge is something that has to specifically learned rather than being part of the character's basic class knowledge. In short, the mechanic gives the feel of being a legendary spellcaster treading boldly into uncharted territory, and I think that's cool. It feels different, it's meant to feel different, and IMO, it's a good thing that it feels different.

Another problem I've seen from using the system is abuse. A player will give himself awesome permanent powers by throwing enough mitagating factors on the spell to reduce the DC to below 10 (I've seen several DC 1 spells). Since the spell is cast out of combat and plenty of time is available, there is no danger.

And just watch the look on that player's face when the spell he spent up to 100 days casting and/or spent thousands of XP on is wiped out by a simple greater dispelling. Remember, epic spells have no special resistance to being dispelled other than their (presumably high) caster level. Also, what does this have to do with switching from skill checks to caster level checks? If you use the same system but apply it to a different base number, you'll still have people abusing the mitigating factors.

Another problem with the system is its potential combat use. The damage dealing spells simply don't do it. Even some of the spells I've created on my own in an attempt to find a good "blast" spell don't work out that well. The DC ends up being too high, whereas a caster who can make such a spellcraft check can easily use metamagic to do more damage with a regular spell. Even casting Vengeful Gaze of the Gods, DC 400+ (I forget exactly) doesn't do enough damage to kill a great deal of epic monsters, and you still have to get through spell resistance!

Again, you'll still have this problem if you use caster level rather than skills. It will be even worse, actually, since the whole point of switching to caster level is that it's harder to pump up, so epic damage spells will be even weaker than before.

 

[Kerrick]

I wasn't going to get into this discussion because, why, I didn't feel like posting. But after reading some of these posts I feel the need to interject my two cents.
First off:

I recall reading (on the Kargatane board) about the complaints of a rogue who was totally outclassed in terms of Hide skill by the party ranger, who happened to find a ring of chameleon power--despite the fact that the ranger did not put a single skill point into Hide, he was far better at it than the rogue who had maxed out Hide since 1st level.

I don't suppose that DM's thought of a simple spell called disjunction, has he? Kills magic items dead. Works for those nasty +X Spellcraft items, too...

Secondly:

Me, I dumped the whole system, and just made up 10th+ level spells.

So did we. We're still playtesting it, but it's working out very well. I'm in the process of converting over old 1E/2E spells, and it's a LOT easier to do it via levels than that broken Spellcraft system. Yes, it's still not that hard to abuse the system, but anyone can abuse just about any system with a little work - that just gives the DM more reason to exercise his BRAIN (yes, that lump of gray matter that resides in your skull that many DMs seem to forget about - to either circumvent the player, or realize that the spell is broken and say NO. Remember, kids, the DM has the final say on epic spells - if they're allowing players to make spells with a DC of 1, then the fault lies not with the system, but with the DM.

 

[Hashmalum]

I recall reading (on the Kargatane board) about the complaints of a rogue who was totally outclassed in terms of Hide skill by the party ranger, who happened to find a ring of chameleon power--despite the fact that the ranger did not put a single skill point into Hide, he was far better at it than the rogue who had maxed out Hide since 1st level.

I don't suppose that DM's thought of a simple spell called disjunction, has he? Kills magic items dead. Works for those nasty +X Spellcraft items, too...

The party in the aforementioned game was fairly low level--IIRC, in the single digits. Mordenkainen's disjunction is a 9th level spell, requiring at least a 17th level wizard to cast it. A party of a high enough level to have a 17th level wizard thrown at them is not one that is going to have the rogue with a maxed Hide skill outclassed by a ring of chameleon power (+15 to Hide checks).

In any case, the fact that an item can be destroyed does not mean that it is balanced, because if the item is allowed into the game at all, it can found, purchased, or made again with item creation feats. True, you could continuously throw 17th+ level spellcasters at the party with one Mordenkainen's disjunction spell after another rolling off their tongues, but this would soon get really, really old. Mordenkainen's disjunction also zaps better balanced items just as well as it zaps overpowered junk, so it isn't exactly an optimal solution.

Remember, kids, the DM has the final say on epic spells - if they're allowing players to make spells with a DC of 1, then the fault lies not with the system, but with the DM.

Absolutely. And it is equally true that it is the responsibility of the DM to exercise the same oversight of magic items that they do of spells and disallow anything that's going to cause balance problems--like +Spellcraft items in a game using the Epic Level Handbook rules. The difference here is that the overpowered epic spells are easier to hose than overpowered magic items (dispel magic and greater dispelling are lower level and more common as spell-like abilities than Mordenkainen's disjunction). The dispelling spells are also less heavy-handed, as they can be targetted at the specific offending spell rather than indiscriminately zapping the good and the bad alike.