Epic6 and BO9S: Your thoughts

[Stalker0]

My group finished a long term 4e game a little bit ago, and now we are considering trying an E6 3.5 game.


In many 3.5 games I've played in, I've been a big fan of Book of Nine Swords...mainly because I felt that it gave martial levels the big boost they needed towards higher levels against spellcasters. Further, my group is used to 4e combat, so the power system of BO9S should come pretty easy to them.

However, I'm a bit concerned about power. To me, BO9S classes are straight up more powerful than most martial classes. I don't have a problem with that. My concern is that at the low levels of E6, I don't feel that martial classes need any help...and I'm concerned spellcasters will be outgunned by the BO9S classes.


Anyone wish to assuage my concerns, or tell me my fears are spot on?

 

[Dice4Hire]

Well, I think if you make all powers in the BO9S non-rechargeable in combat, it should work well. I think there are some really strong powers in there, and recharging them (especially for the warlord, or whatever it is called) is the real problem with the book. Being able to spam the overpowered power every other round is just too much, IMHO.

The other two classes, the paladin lookalike and the swordsage do not have the recharge problem so bad, but I would restrict their recharging also.


But I would not worry too much about it, especially if you are going only to 6th.

Non- recharging would be good.

 

[Runestar]

Lv6 (or 5) is the point where spellcasters start to take over the game anyways, so they likely won't be outclassed by ToB. Mind you, I am assuming god wizards who control the battlefield with spells like glitterdust, cloud of bewilderment, stinking cloud, summon monster and slow.

So yah, let martial adepts recharge all they want.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

There's no ToB version of Color Spray

Edit: Also isn;t the whole argument for casters being godly at every level that isn't 1 built around "but they're weak at lower levels!"

Seriously don't remove the recharge ability. The idea that casters will or have ever needed help in 3.5 is pure insanity.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I'm going to disagree with the majority. Around level 5-6 is where the ToB classes are peaking compared to others. Spellcasters still only have a handful of spells per day and not too many broken ones, and the level 3 maneuvers IMO are a pretty big jump in power (White Raven Tactics and Iron Heart Surge, anyone?). In terms of Warblades and Swordsages, around level 6 you're starting to get to the point where you may not even need to waste a turn refreshing maneuvers before the fight ends.

Dice: In some ways Crusader's recharge is "more of a problem" if you consider recharging them a problem. For Crusaders, it takes no action at all to get them back, though you do have to wait 3 rounds (Assuming you take Extra Granted Maneuver, which you should).

 

[Dice4Hire]

I'm going to disagree with the majority. Around level 5-6 is where the ToB classes are peaking compared to others. Spellcasters still only have a handful of spells per day and not too many broken ones, and the level 3 maneuvers IMO are a pretty big jump in power (White Raven Tactics and Iron Heart Surge, anyone?). In terms of Warblades and Swordsages, around level 6 you're starting to get to the point where you may not even need to waste a turn refreshing maneuvers before the fight ends.

The problem is that warblades do not 'waste' a round at all. In that 'wasted' round they still attack. And in E6 only at 6th level will that cost them a full-round attack. Swordsages truly 'waste' rounds to regain a single power.

Dice: In some ways Crusader's recharge is "more of a problem" if you consider recharging them a problem. For Crusaders, it takes no action at all to get them back, though you do have to wait 3 rounds (Assuming you take Extra Granted Maneuver, which you should).

Not really, it is 3-5 rounds actually, though more likely 3 rounds. It is still a lot better than using one overpowered power (like those mentioned above) on rounds 1,3,5,7,9 etc.

IMC I allow BO9S, but none recharge in a fight. That seems to work well.

 

[mach1.9pants]

IMO in 3E arcane casters suck til later levels then they get too powerful. So I would introduce something like the Pf zero levels spells at will rule.

Or just play Pf6 IMO, a much better game.

EDIT: As in mix and match some Pf classes in as well.

 

[Aus_Snow]

just play Pf6 IMO, a much better game.

Yep.

Switching to 3.PF, regardless, is IMO the way to go. For a number of reasons.

As far as the Bo9S goes, it's not so much power that I've had issue with, with it, but rather flavour, and associated things. Some schools in particular. To the point where there is no way I would ever include them.

But I did experiment with using some Bo9S material, including in a game similar to e6 in many ways (just my own take on that, really), and it was fine. Only one person took any amount of that stuff, so it was never a big focus of the party, but still. Oh, and I was using some others' house rules off the 'net (e.g., some of Nifft's work and some of Hong's) as well as my own alterings, addings and removings.

tl;dr: It should be fine.

 

[Nifft]

I like the At-Will power classes (including Binders, Warlocks, and the Bo9S stuff).

IMHO none of them are particularly overpowered in regular 3.5 D&D, nor are they overpowered in an E6 setting.

Remember that they're competing with at-will +3d6 sneak attack damage (twice per round on a full attack with TWF) = 8d6 total damage from a pair of short swords, at will, every round, for the price of a flanking buddy.

Cheers, -- N

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I like the At-Will power classes (including Binders, Warlocks, and the Bo9S stuff).

IMHO none of them are particularly overpowered in regular 3.5 D&D, nor are they overpowered in an E6 setting.

Remember that they're competing with at-will +3d6 sneak attack damage (twice per round on a full attack with TWF) = 8d6 total damage from a pair of short swords, at will, every round, for the price of a flanking buddy.

Cheers, -- N

Warblade with greatsword and 18 str: 2d6 +6 damage. And +4 better to hit, from BAB and TWF penalty alone. More possibly when you factor in ability bonus to the attack roll. Theoretical rogue is flanking, but Tumble's a class skill for Warblades, too, no reason they couldn't if rogue could. Translate that +4 into +8 damage via Power Attack. Warblade's already doing the equivalent of 4d6 damage per swing, before maneuvers. And from BAB +6, gets two attacks per round, so that's up to 8d6 per round, no class features even factoring in yet. And yes, I'm aware the 2nd attack has little chance of hitting, but you were listing potential damage. Maneuvers add to this significantly. Punishing Stance would as well, if being used. Warblade has better saves, MUCH better health, better armor, White Raven Tactics (it counts as its own class feature )... Rogue gets ~3 more skill points/level (int is more useful to a Warblade, he'll probably have his ~2 points higher) and a nicer list and is generally more useful for out of combat interactions. But in combat, it's no contest, not even close. Especially since 1/3 of the monsters in the book aren't immune to power attack and maneuvers.

EDIT: My bad, 14 is the average of FOURd6, not 2d6, I was actually underselling the warblade's pre-maneuver slaughter potential.