Error on the Mummy Lord

[CRGreathouse]

Is the suggestion that he shouldn't have gotten another claw attack once his BAB hit +6? He currently going monk and this would be another incentive to actually use the open-hand damage, but ...

I'm not sure I like that. I think I'd rather the dragon get the claw/claw/bite/claw-5/claw-10/claw-15 etc...

Can anyone give a rule reference for this? Like from the Monster Manual or Savage Species?

Correct, he'll still have claw/claw/bite, not claw/claw/claw/bite. It's in the introduction of the MM.

 

[Murrdox]

Wow, okay THAT is weird.

So say your race has natural claw attacks and such, and you take levels in Monk enough so that you have multiple attacks from a high BAB.

You can't use your extra attacks?

Or in order to use the extra attacks, would you have to do something like NOT use your claw damage, and instead use either Monk weapons, or the listed Monk unarmed damage for whatever level you are?

 

[Gez]

When making a full attack, you use EITHER your iterative attacks (same weapon, -5 cumulative penalty until BAB reach 4 or below) OR your natural attack routine (which is set once and for all). You don't cumulate both, making first natural attack and then iterative attacks in the same full-round action (although you may imagine an epic savage feat for that).

The other way to try to mix 'em both is with two-weapon fighting, I guess. If you have a claw/claw/bite routine and a BAB of 16, you may try to make a full attack right claw-2/right claw-7/right claw-12/left claw-2/ left claw-7 (or claw-2/claw-7/claw-12/bite-2/bite-7) with TWF and ITWF for the claws... Maybe. It's not the standard use of the feat, but it's similar enough and rather balanced IMHO.

 

[Greybar]

Gez,
Oh that just makes it more confusing (the TWF suggestion).
I just re-read the "Creature Overview" of the SRD with no luck on finding an offical clarification. I actually can't find anything about iterative attacks in the combat sections either, which is troubling from a my eyes vs. srd completeness point of view.

It sounds like I screwed this up in my game, which is fine, mistakes happen and all that. But I am very curious what I should have done.

So my player's character is Karrinkas - a Karranas Ranger4/Monk2 for ECL of 8.

The normal natural attack is claw/claw. The full attack is claw/claw/bite-5 so to speak. Essentially the same as the Leopard in the SRD.

Now when he hit BAB +6 I let him get a secondary attack with his primary paw. Thus a full attack went to claw/claw/claw-5/bite-5. (Writing this out I'm starting to see the flaw, yes.)

Yes it is more complicated has he's gotten monk levels, as the incentive to use the "open paw" approach over his natural attack routine is pretty slender (d6 instead of d4 for damage, but no Weapon Finesse with open-paw while he does have Weapon Finesse with claw).

Let's say his BAB is +8. The suggestion is that he has two options:
Normal Attack: Claw +8 / Claw +8
Full Attack: Claw +8, Claw +8, Bite +3

Alternatively, he might pick up a weapon and become:
Normal Attack: Weapon +8
Full Attack: Weapon +8, Weapon +3

Or, through his Monk teachings:
Normal Attack: Open-Paw +8
Full Attack: Open-Paw +8, Open-Paw +5

Essentially the incentive to pick up the weapon or use open-paw will increase as his BAB increases.

Whew. Sound right?

John

 

[Murrdox]

I THINK you have it right there, Greybar.

I don't think you can use Two Weapon Fighting with natural weapons. He can attack with both claws naturally, he doesn't need any feats to do so.

An animal with 2 claws gets both claws at his full attack bonus ANYWAYS... he doesn't have any penalties associated with using both his claws, so how would two weapon fighting benefit him? All this feat does is reduce a penalty that a creature with natural weapons doesn't have.

 

[Gez]

Gez,
Oh that just makes it more confusing (the TWF suggestion).

Just ignore it, then. My real point was that you use either your natural attack routine or iterative attacks with a full attack.

I just re-read the "Creature Overview" of the SRD with no luck on finding an offical clarification. I actually can't find anything about iterative attacks in the combat sections either, which is troubling from a my eyes vs. srd completeness point of view.

Then they're simply not refered to by name. They are the default extra attacks of a full attack action.

It sounds like I screwed this up in my game, which is fine, mistakes happen and all that. But I am very curious what I should have done.

So my player's character is Karrinkas - a Karranas Ranger4/Monk2 for ECL of 8.

The normal natural attack is claw/claw. The full attack is claw/claw/bite-5 so to speak. Essentially the same as the Leopard in the SRD.

Not exactly.

Ranger 4/Monk 2 --> BAB 5.

This means:
Natural Attacks
Standard: Claw +5 or Bite +5 (+ Str or Dex bonus, feats, etc.)
Full: Claw +5/Claw +5/Bite +0 (+ Str or Dex bonus, feats, etc.)
Iterative Attacks
Standard: Claw +5 or Bite +5 or weapon +5 (+ Str or Dex bonus, feats, etc.)
Full: Claw +5 or Bite +5 or weapon +5 (+ Str or Dex bonus, feats, etc.)

With a BAB of 5, the character actually don't get any extra attack. Clearly, he's better using his natural attack routine. The only reason for not using natural attack is using a weapon (because the foe has a damage reduction the weapon offset, or because the foe is dangerous to touch, like a gelatinous cube, for example).

Now when he hit BAB +6 I let him get a secondary attack with his primary paw. Thus a full attack went to claw/claw/claw-5/bite-5. (Writing this out I'm starting to see the flaw, yes.)

With a BAB of 6, you get your first iterative attack.

Natural Attacks
Standard: Claw +6 or Bite +6
Full: Claw +6/Claw +6/Bite +1
Iterative Attacks
Standard: Claw, bite, or weapon +6
Full: Claw, bite, or weapon +6/+1

Yes it is more complicated has he's gotten monk levels, as the incentive to use the "open paw" approach over his natural attack routine is pretty slender (d6 instead of d4 for damage, but no Weapon Finesse with open-paw while he does have Weapon Finesse with claw).

Let's say his BAB is +8. The suggestion is that he has two options:
Normal Attack: Claw +8 / Claw +8
Full Attack: Claw +8, Claw +8, Bite +3

Alternatively, he might pick up a weapon and become:
Normal Attack: Weapon +8
Full Attack: Weapon +8, Weapon +3

Or, through his Monk teachings:
Normal Attack: Open-Paw +8
Full Attack: Open-Paw +8, Open-Paw +5

No. With an BAB of +8, he gets iterative unarmed attacks at +8/+5/+2 and normal iterative attacks of +8/+3.

So, he gets three options:

Natural Attacks
Standard: Claw +8 or Bite +8
Full: Claw +8/Claw +8/Bite +3
Iterative Attacks
Standard: Claw, bite, or weapon +8
Full: Claw, bite, or weapon +8/+3
Monk Unarmed Combat:
Standard: Unarmed +8
Full: Unarmed +8/+5/+2

Essentially the incentive to pick up the weapon or use open-paw will increase as his BAB increases.

Yes. At low BAB, the natural attack routine is more interesting.

Let say he fares well and reach a BAB of 15. His options are then:

Natural Attacks
Standard: Claw +15 or Bite +15
Full: Claw +15/Claw +15/Bite +10
Iterative Attacks
Standard: Claw, bite, or weapon +15
Full: Claw, bite, or weapon +15/+10/+5
Monk Unarmed Combat:
Standard: Unarmed +15
Full: Unarmed +15/+12/+9/+6/+3

Please note that a normal attack (taking a single standard action to attack rather than a full-round action) will always result in a single attack -- no "normal attack: claw +8/claw +8" as you have written above, but "normal attack: claw +8". For anything that allows two or more attacks with one action, you have to use the full attack action.

The pounce ability allows to make a full attack after a charge, by the way -- so the mechanics isn't broken by it.

 

[Stalker0]

Another way to think about is to look at a monk/fighter example.

You can use either
1) Your full combined BAB with the -5 iterative progression.
2) Just the monk BAB with the -3 iterative progression.

You can use either one, but they don't work with each other. Monster's natural attacks are the same way, its a routine you can always use, but it doesn't apply to the iterative options you have.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Please note that a normal attack (taking a single standard action to attack rather than a full-round action) will always result in a single attack -- no "normal attack: claw +8/claw +8" as you have written above, but "normal attack: claw +8". For anything that allows two or more attacks with one action, you have to use the full attack action.

Read it. Love it. Live it. (or something...)

Gez is absolutely correct here. This makes me question my wisdom in questioning the wisdom of the 3.5 method of displaying "Attack: Claw +8" and "Full attack: 2 claws +8, bite +3".