Esoteric Seed Speculation

[Sepulchrave II]

One of the things that occurs to me regarding esoteric seeds is that, if need be, they can be balanced on the basis of their prerequisite epic feats, rather than by factors within the seeds themselves.

This is an extreme example of such an idea; it presupposes a Magnificat feat (the exact details of which are hazy) and a corresponding 'Word and Aura' feat - with a more satisfatory name, yet to be contrived.

The genesis spell costs 5000 XP and has a 1-week casting time, suggesting to me that the 30 or so factors required to bring it down to 1 action and eliminate the XP cost are perfect for an epic feat; furthermore, with both Magnificat and the 'Word and Aura' feats as prerequisites, the [genesis] seed could include another 10 factors above and beyond that (a highly specific feat with strict prerequisites would be required to gain access to it). I think that this major flexibilty would be enough to eliminate the 1 foot per day growth present in the genesis spell, making the creation of the plane to its fullest extent instantaneous.

I've included a [life] or [ensoul] descriptive seed option for introducing mundane life - it would be nice if there was also a druidic route to access [genesis].



[Genesis] (Esoteric)
Conjuration (Creation)

Root Spell: Genesis
Preferred Mitigation: Extended casting time, XP burn
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 180 ft.
Effect: A demiplane with a radius of 180 ft., coterminous with the Ethereal Plane, centered on your location
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You create a finite plane with limited access: a demiplane. You can only cast this spell while on the Ethereal Plane. The demiplane is formed immediately to its full extent.

Factors: To create a demiplane which is coterminous with a different transitive plane (such as the Plane of Shadow), increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +4. To create a demiplane which is coterminous with a nontransitive plane (such as the Elemental Plane of Earth), increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +6. In each case, you must be on the relevant plane with which the demiplane will be coterminous when the spell is cast.

Mitigating Factor: If you use the [genesis] seed to create a demiplane which grows at a rate of 1 foot per day to its maximum range instead of instantly forming, reduce the Spellcraft Prerequisite by -10.

Factor: You may increase the initial radius of the demiplane by 180 ft. for each +3 increase in the Spellcraft Prerequisite.

You determine the environment within the demiplane when you first cast a spell developed with [genesis], reflecting most any desire you can visualize. You determine factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, illumination, and the general shape of the terrain.

Factor: By including either the [life] or [ensoul] seed as a descriptive seed (each at +6SP) in a spell developed with the [genesis] seed, you may introduce a natural ecosystem of your choosing which includes plants and normal animal life. The ecosystem will thrive within the limits of the demiplane. The creation of sapient or unusual life requires the development of a separate epic spell.

A spell developed with the [genesis] seed is stackable: you can continue to cast the spell to enlarge the demiplane, adding an additional radius equal to the initial radius of the demiplane each time.

 

[Cheiromancer]

You can only cast this spell while on the Ethereal Plane.

Or within an already existing demiplane. I wonder what happens if you change your mind about what you want the plane to be like. Can you make a gloomy plane brighter with subsequent castings? Your influence would be inversely proportionate to the size of the demiplane, of course.

I really like this seed. I am already thinking of pharamne's urn as providing a mess of prerequisite feats that modify this seed.

What do you think of emulating psychic reformation with a limited wish? It would allow 6 levels worth of feats and skills to be rechosen - more if you pay more than 300 xp - and likely allow sorcerers to rechoose their spells known.

Psychic reformation more or less trivializes feats like Epic Item creation. It would certainly vitiate the balancing value of a feat on an esoteric seed like this. DMs who don't use psionics, or who don't have psionics-magic transparency wouldn't allow it, but I don't think that should be a precondition to using these rules.

You might, I suppose, make it more expensive to reshuffle epic levels (500 xp/level?), and perhaps require a wish to do it (which would allow 10 levels to be reshuffled). That would be a coherent way of extending the rules to epic levels while reining in the potential for abuse.

What do you think?

 

[Sepulchrave II]

What do you think of emulating psychic reformation with a limited wish? It would allow 6 levels worth of feats and skills to be rechosen - more if you pay more than 300 xp - and likely allow sorcerers to rechoose their spells known.

I dunno. I let players retroengineer their characters on a pretty regular basis, so I'm not necessarily averse. It's such a situational thing, though - I'm not persuaded that the rules can satisfactorily address it. The retraining/rebuilding option in the PHB II allows similar tweaks. I was thinking something similar along the lines of reincarnation, as well - things like bonus feats due to changes in species. My gut feeling is that this is kind of reconstruction is more suitable for an epic spell than a 4th-level psion power, but like I say, its pretty situational.

Savage species had rules for 'becoming a monster' while that fad was briefly current, which involved rites and XP costs (IIRC).

Perhaps these ideas can be married in the [ensoul] seed - assuming that it embraces the awaken and reincarnation spells. If a reincarnation effect could somehow be extended to still-living subjects, a factor effectively derived from a psychic reformation secondary seed (+6 SP) could be included. I suspect that the mandatory level-loss is too punitive, though.

How did you envisage it working? Maybe wish is the way to go.

 

[Cheiromancer]

It might be that I am misunderstanding your intent behind the prerequisite feats. If someone has carefully been building their character towards a goal over 10 levels (or more) then they should get a rich reward- in this case, casting genesis.

But if someone else can cast limited wish and pay a total of 500 xp to get to the same point, it seems to cheapen the discipline and foresight displayed by the first character. I was supposing that this would be undesirable.

On the other hand, it would sure be convenient for an epic wizard to be able to "change gears" and decide to make magic items for a while; he casts a limited wish and redeploys 4 feats and a bunch of skill-points to more craftsmanlike purposes.

Hmmm. That would be interesting. Especially for the characters with 10+ skill points per level. If they don't know something they can just reshuffle their skill-points into the appropriate (and highly specific) knowledge skill.

Anyway, the prerequisites for casting genesis would not, in fact, be several feats that take many levels to achieve and require a great deal of commitment. It would only require a limited wish.

I'm trying to think of a way to make it easy to change gears to craft items, but difficult to change gears to cast genesis. Making a wish allow you to change up to 10 epic levels (feats and skills) for 5000 xp, and one more epic level for each 500 xp, was the approach I was thinking of. Or a limited wish allowing you to change the most recent epic level (the cost is only 300 xp instead of 500 xp, but it isn't stackable, so that's OK). That would probably be enough to allow item crafting to take place, but long feat chains would be inaccessible.

Sort of an epic (x10) modifier for epic levels. A non-epic level costs 50 xp, an epic level costs 500 xp.

***

For the "word and aura" feat I would suggest an esoteric word: nomothetic, perhaps, or logomachy. The former suggests the imposition of an alignment onto reality, and the latter is evocative of the strife between alignments.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

I dunno. Psychic reformation seems eminently abuseable if it is routinely available, but there are situations where it could help restore balance to a seriously underpowered character. It's the fact that it can be repeated at the convenience of the caster which concerns me: if there was some other mechanism which prevented its use (maybe a character could only benefit from it once), then it might be OK. And the idea of a character being able to redefine himself every day (or more than once every day) would make bookkeeping a monumental nightmare.

Perhaps the answer is to make psychic reformation itself an esoteric seed (assuming the 500 xp/epic level reconstruction cost, which could be factored in) - [reintegrate], or something. Meh.

Honestly, I think on balance that the idea is so metagame that DMs should make decisions based on circumstances. I don't think that there should be any kind of rule at all to address it.

Edit: I like Nomothetic, btw.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Nomothetic would be my preferred choice, too.

I think that there should be places in the text (sidebars, probably) where not-rules like this can be called out; a brief discussion, or at least a mention, of things like psychic reformation. Basically repeating what you just said. Maybe put in my suggestion (wish + 500 xp/epic level), but warning against the bookkeeping nightmare.

As an in-game suggestion for controlling it, maybe this constant reinvention will frustrate the player's mirror image, eventually prompting it to seek out the player and seek revenge. Treat as a mirror of opposition. If the reflection is destroyed, psychic reformation can no longer work; there is no longer a substrate for the spell to manipulate. In addition, the player will not cast a reflection, and may be mistaken for a vampire.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

[Rune]
Rune is one of my favorite words - it means 'hidden knowledge' or 'secret wisdom' in OE and related languages, as well as an inscribed symbol which conveys meaning. Symbol is a great word too, of course. Its all esoteric.

I'm been trying to find a way to bring all of the various symbols together in a single permanent esoteric seed, called [Rune].

I think that the school of [Rune] should be Universal, with various subsidiary effects marked out as [Death] or [Mind-Affecting] or whatever. I'm not looking for a symbol kernel, per se - because I'm going to factor the permanency in: I'm assuming a flat integrated 5000XP for all permanent symbol manifestations of [Rune] on the basis that they're 10th-level spells. All symbols are now (D), as well.

A single, 1-use glyph with an otherwise permanent duraton (from glyph of warding and explosive runes) is also available - they are modified to bring their areas, robustness and trigger conditions into line with symbol. The explosive runes variant also incorporates a [blast] secondary seed with the [force] descriptor, although it is invisible in the final seed.


Springboard Feat
I'd like the springboard feat to open up the [Rune] seed and offer the equivalent of 12 points of mitigation, and I'd like the seed to be flexible (choose your rune upon scribing) - this means that someone with the feat could scribe a 1-action, permanent symbol of fear effect with no components as a base SP 24 spell. Lower-power symbols are beefed up accordingly, to bring them up to 68 (Kernelese) or so.

The clerical Rune domain is an obvious candidate for this feat, and it otherwise seems (to me) more wizardly than sorcerous. I think Scribe Scroll (which is the granted domain power of the Rune domain) makes an excellent prereq; Scribe Epic Scroll is a very heavy prereq, and the feat's power reflects this. It's primary function was inspired by your treatment of blasphemy as a verbal component in a spell, and I've attempted to retain some symmetry with that.

I'd like to also include some sizeable benefit in the feat relating to the transmission of epic spells - something we haven't really touched on. We need some kind of mechanism for this, though, and it will probably involve an XP cost and a GP cost to do it. I figured this feat would also work well in conjunction with Ignore Material Components - symbols are expensive. I think it would work for a 'mixed' (both jacobean and metamagic) style caster. Maybe Thomas would like it.


Perfect Intaglio [Epic]
Your ability to transmit esoteric knowledge through writing and inscription is unmatched; you can fortify your written spells with symbols, and you can imbue your most powerful symbols with extraordinary power.
Prerequisites: Epic Spellcasting, Scribe Epic Scroll, Scribe Scroll, Knowledge (arcana or religion) 30 ranks, Spellcraft 30 ranks.
Benefit: All scribing costs in gold and experience for nonepic spells, and all equivalent engraving costs for epic spells are halved.
When you scribe a scroll with a nonepic spell of any level, you may incorporate the power of a symbol into a spell it holds: your caster level when you cast the spell from the scroll increases by a number equal to the level of the symbol with which you have fortified it. The spell augmented by the symbol must belong to the same school as the symbol. You are considered to cast the symbol during the scroll creation process, and must meet any relevant costs normally associated with it. Only you or another with this feat may benefit from the increased power of a scroll so inscribed.

Example: a wizard with this feat incorporates the power of a symbol of death (an 8th-level spell) into a scroll of horrid wilting which he scribes. When he reads the scroll to cast the spell, the horrid wilting is treated as a spell with a caster level 8 levels higher for all purposes.​

Special: If you possess this feat, you may develop spells using the esoteric [Rune] seed.


*


[Rune] (Esoteric)
Universal

Root Spell: Explosive runes, greater glyph of warding, various symbols
Preferred Mitigation: Extended casting time, power components, XP burn
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 0 ft.
Effect: One magical rune
Duration: Permanent (D)
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: Yes

This seed allows you to scribe a potent rune of power upon a surface. When triggered, a spell devised with a [rune] affects one or more creatures within 60 feet. You may choose one of two applications of this seed: the first is a magical glyph which is permanent until it discharges its energy, the second is a symbol which continues to radiate its effect indefinitely after activation.

All nonepic spells which might otherwise negate or bypass a nonepic glyph or rune (such as erase, nondetection and dispel magic) are ineffective against it: a wish or miracle, or an epic spell incorporating the [dispel] seed may dispel an epic [rune] if it succeeds at a caster level check.

When you inscribe a spell with the [rune] seed you may default to any of its functions for which you have adequately increased the Spellcraft Prerequisite; to set the specific kind of [rune] during spell development, reduce the Spellcraft Prerequisite by 4. All level-dependent features of a [rune] effect are based on your caster level at the time of its scribing.

Once triggered, the [rune] becomes active and glows; a glyph effect immediately discharges its stored potential, a symbol effect remains active. Any creature that enters the area while a symbol is active is subject to its effect, whether or not that creature was in the area when it was triggered. A creature need save against the symbol only once as long as it remains within the area, though if it leaves the area and returns while the symbol is still active, it must save again.

To be effective, a [rune] must always be placed in plain sight and in a prominent location. Covering or hiding the rune renders it ineffective, unless a creature removes the covering, in which case the it works normally.

As a default, a spell devised with the [rune] seed is triggered whenever a creature does one or more of the following, as you select: looks at the rune; reads the rune; touches the rune; passes over the rune; or passes through a portal bearing the rune. Regardless of the trigger method or methods chosen, a creature more than 60 feet from the rune can’t trigger it (even if it meets one or more of the triggering conditions, such as reading the rune). Once the spell is cast, a rune’s triggering conditions cannot be changed.

In this case, “reading” the rune means any attempt to study it, identify it, or fathom its meaning. Throwing a cover over rune to render it inoperative triggers it if il reacts to touch. You can’t use a rune offensively; for instance, a touch-triggered death rune remains untriggered if an item bearing the rune is used to touch a creature. Likewise, a rune cannot be placed on a weapon and set to activate when the weapon strikes a foe.

You can also set special triggering limitations of your own. These can be as simple or elaborate as you desire. Special conditions for triggering a rune can be based on a creature’s name, identity, or alignment, but otherwise must be based on observable actions or qualities. Intangibles such as level, class, Hit Dice, and hit points don’t qualify.

When scribing a rune, you can specify a password or phrase that prevents a creature using it from triggering the effect. Anyone using the password remains immune to that particular rune’s effects so long as the creature remains within 60 feet of the rune. If the creature leaves the radius and returns later, it must use the password again.

You also can attune any number of creatures to a rune, but doing this can extend the casting time. Attuning one or two creatures takes negligible time, and attuning a small group (as many as ten creatures) extends the casting time to 1 hour. Attuning a large group (as many as twenty-five creatures) takes 24 hours. Attuning larger groups takes proportionately longer. Any creature attuned to a rune cannot trigger it and is immune to its effects, even if within its radius when triggered. You are automatically considered attuned to your own runes, and thus always ignore the effects and cannot inadvertently trigger them.

Read magic allows you to identify a rune devised with this seed with a DC 25 Spellcraft check. Of course, if the rune is set to be triggered by reading it, this will trigger it. Destruction of the surface where a rune is inscribed destroys it but also triggers it.

Note: Magic traps such as this are hard to detect and disable. A rogue (only) can use the Search skill to find a rune use and Disable Device to thwart it. The DC is 25 + spell level, or 35 in the case fo spells devised with this seed. A glyph or symbol devised with the [rune] seed which is disabled becomes active again 10 minutes later.

Glyph Effect
This effect is permanent until discharged. You may choose one of two effects:

• Blast Glyph: When its trigger condition is met, this glyph explodes in a radius of 60 feet for 36d6 points of [force] damage. For each additional 10 dice of stored potential damage in the glyph, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +2. Creatures caught within the blast are entitled to a Reflex saving throw to reduce the damage by half.
  
• Spell Storing Glyph: You may scribe a glyph which contains a single harmful spell of up to 9th-level. If the spell has target, it targets the creature who activated the glyph. If the stored spell has an area or an amorphous effect (such as a cloud), the effect is centered on the creature who activated the glyph. If the spell summons creatures, they appear as close as possible to the activating creature and attack. Saving throws and SR operate as normal, but the effect is considered 10th-level for these purposes. You may store metamgicked spells above 9th-level with a spell-storing glyph: for each additional level of incorporated metamagic, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +4.

Symbol Effect
A variety of permanent symbol effects are available.

• Sleep: All creatures of 15HD or less within 60-ft. fall into a catatonic slumber for 3d6 x 10 minutes. To increase the HD limit on creatures susceptible to this rune, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +1 for each additional Hit Die. This is a [mind-affecting] effect. A Will saving throw negates it.
• Pain: All creatures within the radius suffer wracking pains which impose a -6 penalty on attack rolls, skill checks and ability checks. These effects last for 1 hour after a creature moves more than 60 feet from the rune. To increase the penalty assessed in each category by -1, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +2: this factor stacks. This effect has the [evil] descriptor: a successful Fortitude saving throw negates it.
• Persuasion: Creatures within the radius are charmed as a charm monster spell for 20 hours. This is a [mind-affecting] effect. A Will saving throw negates it.
• Fear: Creatures within 60 feet of the rune become panicked for 20 rounds unless they make a successful Will save. This is a [mind-affecting] [fear] effect.
• Stunning: Increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +2. Creatures within 60 feet are stunned for 1d6 rounds unless they make a successful Will save. This is a [mind-affecting] effect.
• Weakness: Increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +2. All creatures within 60-ft suffer crippling weakness and take 3d6 points of Strength damage when the rune is active. For each additional d6 of Strength damage inflicted, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +4. A Fortitude saving throw negates it.
• Insanity: Increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +6. Creatures within the radius of the spell become permanently insane (as the insanity spell). This is a [mind-affecting] effect. A Will saving throw negates it.
• Death: Increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +10. This manifestation of [rune] slays up to 200 hit points worth of creatures. It affects the closest creatures first, skipping creatures with too many hit points to affect. One it has affected its maximum number of hit points, the symbol becomes inactive for 10 minutes. For each additional 100 hit points affected, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +6. This is a [death] effect, and a Fortitude saving throw negates it.

Applying Factors
The effects caused by the various manifestations of [rune] are subject to modification by factors, and these are costed as though they were modifications to the seed itself: by applying the relevant duration factor to the sleep manifestation of [rune], the duration of the symbol's effects could be doubled; by applying the relevant area factor to any [rune], the area of effect of the rune can be increased from a 60-ft radius to a 120-ft. radius etc.

Universal Duration Mitigating Factor
Any application of the [rune] seed may have its permanent duration reduced to 200 minutes. In this case, the death manifestation of [rune] does not renew itself after 10 minutes. If this factor is applied, reduce the Spellcraft Prerequisite by 20 points.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

I've been considering a [lucence] seed which embraces daylight, sunbeam, sunburst, scintillating pattern and a variety of prismatic effects - I'm tempted to mine the SC to incorporate effects from prismatic spells from there, too.

These spells can be linked thematically, but its hard to link them mechanically because of the duration gap (instantaneous vs. non-instantaneous effects), and the divergent area potential (a 10th-level daylight could be enormous, a 10th-level prismatic sphere, less so).

I'm wondering if, instead of a dedicated seed, they can be 'tacked on' to exisiting [blast] and [field] seeds via an epic feat: i.e. [blast] would have an exoteric aspect (for fire, force, typeless damage etc.) and an esoteric lucence aspect (for various prismatic effects, or sunburst) which would be revealed by the feat. These esoteric aspects would be detailed outside of the main body of text for [blast]. [Blast] could have other esoteric aspects as well, accessible through different feats.

Which brings up another question: how do you want to deal with prismatic sphere? Should we treat it as a shell (with a 'skin'), or as an area suffused with the effects of the spell? I incline toward the second, but I'm wary of its offensive potential (if you invoke a a 200-ft. radius prismatic sphere, that's a lot of multiple saves).

 

[Cheiromancer]

I had always thought of prismatic sphere as a shell with a thin skin.

I like the idea of there being other aspects to seeds than the ones we state explicitly. Perhaps uncovered by feats, or perhaps simply by directed research. E.g. If someone was having trouble with epic slaads and wanted to research resistance against chaotic type damage, there shouldn't be any problem with that, despite the fact that it's not mentioned in the [augment] seed. But such a thing shouldn't require a feat.

And there might be different ways of configuring seeds, though I wouldn't really want to go too deeply into the possibilities. But if a sorcerer were to choose the [chaos] domain it should be easy enough to give him the relevant parts of [summon], [aura] and [word], and maybe just a bit of [augment] as well (resistance to lawful effects and DR/lawful).