• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

Essential Essentials

herrozerro

First Post
You totally missed the point completely.

Emartial classes have an extremely limited amount of tactical options to choose from. They get one extremely small pool of tricks/stances/ whatever to pick from throughout their entire career. The options available never change from 1-30. They're reduced to one trick ponies, and have had versatility removed almost completely.

The mage retains a huge amount of versatility, receives thousands more tactical options (due to retaining the aedu structure), and is almost fully compatible with its phb1 counterpart.

Martial classes became more narrow, mages became more broad. I find this almost insulting, as tge martial power source has been my favorite. It's like they're saying the people playing martial classes can't handle the vast array of options available to the caster. Something that was common in previous editions, and that 4e core killed off.

Wizards rule (built for the superior intellectual gamer). Fighters drool (built for Gomer Pyle). Martial = the training wheels of D&d once again.

New guy joins, let him play the fighter. I hated that in previous editions, and now it's back.

Now, if they had made the mage the same way as a simple blaster type with a similar mechanic, I might not have minded. They chose to make it linear/simple martial classes, complex wizards.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

I would conceed the point of complexity, though it would seem to mostly apply in the case of the wizard.

The mage would seem to be the really exception to the complexity rule, the druid, cleric and the hexblade while they have daily powers are still vastly simpler then the wizard.

Though in terms of power, it still cannot be said that fighters are surpassed by wizards in later levels. They remain viable classes throughout all 30 levels.

Personally im not so offended about the simplicity thing, in fact i like it for all classes. (except that complex mage)
 

log in or register to remove this ad

You totally missed the point completely.

Emartial classes have an extremely limited amount of tactical options to choose from. They get one extremely small pool of tricks/stances/ whatever to pick from throughout their entire career. The options available never change from 1-30. They're reduced to one trick ponies, and have had versatility removed almost completely.

The mage retains a huge amount of versatility, receives thousands more tactical options (due to retaining the aedu structure), and is almost fully compatible with its phb1 counterpart.

Martial classes became more narrow, mages became more broad. I find this almost insulting, as tge martial power source has been my favorite. It's like they're saying the people playing martial classes can't handle the vast array of options available to the caster. Something that was common in previous editions, and that 4e core killed off.

Wizards rule (built for the superior intellectual gamer). Fighters drool (built for Gomer Pyle). Martial = the training wheels of D&d once again.

New guy joins, let him play the fighter. I hated that in previous editions, and now it's back.

Now, if they had made the mage the same way as a simple blaster type with a similar mechanic, I might not have minded. They chose to make it linear/simple martial classes, complex wizards.
Why do you read into the design so cynically? There's a good case to be made that Martial classes are simpler because their business is simpler; at its most straightforward, what they do is swing a sword. This has nothing to do with any kind of assumptions about the nature of people who play Martial classes, and I don't think you should take it as a personal insult that Fighters don't have Daily powers anymore.

(I also think you overestimate the complexity of the Mage/Wizard; it's supposed to be a class with a big book of reality-bending powers to choose from. Some of those powers can be used more often than others, but there's hardly much nuance to it; most of the time, a Mage's choice boils down to "which spell makes the biggest explosion and does the most damage, and where can I use it to hit the most enemies?" At best, it's no more complex than the Knight or Slayer is, and especially in the case of the Knight, I'd argue that Mage requires less tactical thinking; at least the Knight has to worry about standing in the right spot and keeping enemies from moving in on that idiot, squishy caster who keeps running out from cover.)

I happen to be a big fan of Martial classes myself, just like you. I didn't have any problem with the AEDU structure for Fighters and Rogues and Warlords, but these days I really honestly believe that the way Essentials does the Martial power source makes a lot more sense. By building everything Martial around At-Will powers, we don't have to strain anyone's credulity by trying to explain how a "realistic", physically-based power source has abilities that only work once per day; if you picked up a sword yourself, in real life, is there any way you could think of to swing it that you could do only once each day (barring injuring yourself with the thing)?

An At-Will/basic-attack-based system of powers for Martial characters makes sense. Yes, it's arguably less complex, but there's no reason to assume that's meant as any kind of insult to players, especially since Martial character now (unlike in previous editions) are perfectly capable and combat relevant all the way up to level 30.

Here's a quote you might find interesting:
Albert Einstein said:
"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction."
 

mneme

Explorer
if you picked up a sword yourself, in real life, is there any way you could think of to swing it that you could do only once each day (barring injuring yourself with the thing)?
FWIW: yes. For instance, I can execute a perfectly reasonable disarm/attack, where I trap my opponent's weapon between my off-hand (on the hilt) and my blade, making a nifty triangle between their arm, their blade, and my blade going into their side.

But I can't do that every fight. I can't even do that every day -- the situation has to be right.

Similarly, I've trained to perform a "passata-sotto" -- a counter-attack where I perform a backwards lunge against a high attack, placing my blade over my head, but it's -very- rare that the conditions are right for the attack.

Real fighters train in plenty of powerful, but situational moves which they don't use over and over again -- they use them only when the time is right. This is the kind of thing that is -hard- to simulate realistically in a RPG. But using a resource management technique like "daily attacks" doesn't do a half bad job of managing the appropriate pacing; it means the player is controlling when the situation arises, but there's nothing really wrong with that; the same kind of directoral approach also governs abilities like Second Chance.

Now, that said, there are plenty of people who prefer the "at will + Bonus" and lower resource management approach of the Essentials martial characters, and I see no reason the game shouldn't accomidate them. Similarly, there really -are- people who say "I don't want anything complicated, just give me a fighter" -- or even do that and then use actual roleplaying and planning to make their -own- complexity without needing a laundry list of powers, and for such players the E-classes are superior. I do enjoy playing wizard-like characters and always have, but them having their fun doesn't detract from mine--and who knows, I might join them at some point!
 

FWIW: yes. For instance, I can execute a perfectly reasonable disarm/attack, where I trap my opponent's weapon between my off-hand (on the hilt) and my blade, making a nifty triangle between their arm, their blade, and my blade going into their side.

But I can't do that every fight. I can't even do that every day -- the situation has to be right.

Similarly, I've trained to perform a "passata-sotto" -- a counter-attack where I perform a backwards lunge against a high attack, placing my blade over my head, but it's -very- rare that the conditions are right for the attack.

Real fighters train in plenty of powerful, but situational moves which they don't use over and over again -- they use them only when the time is right. This is the kind of thing that is -hard- to simulate realistically in a RPG. But using a resource management technique like "daily attacks" doesn't do a half bad job of managing the appropriate pacing; it means the player is controlling when the situation arises, but there's nothing really wrong with that; the same kind of directoral approach also governs abilities like Second Chance.

Now, that said, there are plenty of people who prefer the "at will + Bonus" and lower resource management approach of the Essentials martial characters, and I see no reason the game shouldn't accomidate them. Similarly, there really -are- people who say "I don't want anything complicated, just give me a fighter" -- or even do that and then use actual roleplaying and planning to make their -own- complexity without needing a laundry list of powers, and for such players the E-classes are superior. I do enjoy playing wizard-like characters and always have, but them having their fun doesn't detract from mine--and who knows, I might join them at some point!
I agree with you, mneme. You offer a strong case in defense of Martial AEDU classes. I'm not at all opposed the the idea of such classes--I defended them, too, when 4E was still new--rather, I've merely become convinced by Essentials that there is an even better way of doing it (generally speaking).

FWIW, in "My Ideal 4E*" there would still be a place for AEDU Martial characters. The basic Fighter would yet be an At-Will based class like the Knight and Slayer are, but there would be other classes, flavoured around a focus on technical and personal mastery of combat. I'd design it in a manner similar to the 4E Monk class (which I would declare to be Martial and Psionic), and I'd probably name this new class "Swordsage" (from Bot9S) or "Kensei." It would have a loosely-martial-arts flavour. Additionally, I'd revamp multiclassing for a variety of reasons, including allowing for more common sharing of abilities and features between this new class and other, similar classes, such as the Fighter. Finally, I'd also build upon the idea of feat-based (or maybe not) weapon mastery abilities that grant new AEDU powers to any character who selects them. This way, we'd have a broad spread of approaches. (Now I just have to reconcile these ideas with my interest in simplifying character creation...)

*(You know, the hypothetical game I'd make if I had a massive fortune to squander on hiring my own stable of game designers...)
 

mneme

Explorer
I agree with you, mneme. You offer a strong case in defense of Martial AEDU classes. I'm not at all opposed the the idea of such classes--I defended them, too, when 4E was still new--rather, I've merely become convinced by Essentials that there is an even better way of doing it (generally speaking).

Maybe. Frankly, I think probably the biggest design-level mistake in 4e was "making everyone like a wizard" -- that is, giving everyone a huge laundry list of powers to chose from, resulting in them having a large laundry list of powers to use, with different damage expressions, (worse for casters), different abilities, and so on. This results in -far- more repetition and redundancy than the game wants or needs -- and worse, discourages the kinds of improvistation that martial classes (which had nothing, and so were rife with creativity) did all the time. Sure, it unified the classes in a useful, unprecedented way, but it was also going in the wrong direction.

A better approach, IMO, is to "make everyone (more) like a fighter" -- or perhaps like a psion. Rather than have fixed powers, have general manuvers that anyone (or anyone with a given role/poewr source) can do, and build actions out of those, with some guidelines for improvising new ones. Rather than discouraging martial classes (all classes, really) from improvising by giving them a laundry list of actions to pick from, give them flexibility off the bat, with room in there for even -more- flexibility by improvisation. Instead of gaining powers, you'd gain capabilities, like "do fire damage" and "make an attack that stuns", but would be able to trade off between damage and other effects on the fly, or try to stunt using the same resources. Instead of having enounters, dailies, and at-will powers, you'd have encounter and daily resources that would let you select from your more powerful options--or you could not select such options and go with a default (say, +x to damage as an all day buffs?)

How the E-classes would fit in there is an interesting quesiton -- probably you'd just have some of the things you could spend your "daily resources" on be all-day buffs. But with fewer options to look at overall it would be less of a problem; you -could- mess with combinations, but wouldn't have to; unlike the ADEU approach where you lose a lot of your damage if you stick to doing the same thing all day, the right options could let that be optimal -- if you only cared about damage.
 

The Little Raven

First Post
It's like they're saying the people playing martial classes can't handle the vast array of options available to the caster.

I know, right! I mean, it's like they expect us to somehow make due with the limited resources of PHB1, Martial Power, Martial Power 2 and scads of Dragon articles.
 

MerricB

Eternal Optimist
Supporter
FWIW: yes. For instance, I can execute a perfectly reasonable disarm/attack, where I trap my opponent's weapon between my off-hand (on the hilt) and my blade, making a nifty triangle between their arm, their blade, and my blade going into their side.

But I can't do that every fight. I can't even do that every day -- the situation has to be right.

It really is a tough design problem. The two ways we've seen it work so far are

* The player can only do it rarely, but chooses when
* The player can attempt it lots, but succeeds rarely*

The first is 4e. The second is 1e-3e, which means that the manuever is almost never tried. Except in 3e, where the game allowed a character to load up on feats so that it pretty much never failed. (A massive failure in design).

My preferred way of doing a disarm mechanic would be in a card-game style, where each card is an attack or defense, and the disarm can only apply if you've had a certain sequence of cards first. But, you know, it's a little tricky for a group game. :)

One thing I really like about 4e at present is that we've got both Essentials and PH martial classes, and both work within the game and appeal to different groups of players. It's a far better situation than at the start when it was really hard to give new players a fighter and expect them to play it competently. (Or any class, for that matter).

Cheers!
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Why do you read into the design so cynically?
I find myself being cynical a lot, because there's a lot to be cynical about. The sort of nerd sub-culture that grew up among D&D fans had long had a strong, quiet undercurrent of what can only be called 'anti-martialism.' The game had deep flaws in the way it balanced casters and non-casters, but those flaws were embraced and enshrined. I can't guess at exactly why. I've heard speculation that we nerds identified with the high-INT magic-users, and identified the high-STR fighter with the 'jocks' we dispised, and therefor gravitated towards a D&D that relegated the fighter to worthless meat-shield after the lowest levels.

For whatever reason, D&D consistently failed to do justice to the most prevelent of heroic archetypes - the mighty warriors, brilliant generals, charismatic leaders-of-men, and accomplished knights. Even 4e really doesn't quite pull it off. The Fighter may be combat-relevent and have some of the peak-power of dailies so long enjoyed by casters, but no martial class touches any arcane class for sheer breadth and versatility of powers. And, Fighters are still engineered to fall into the 'big dumb' pigeon-hole, having great need of STR and none at all of INT or CHA. Warlords were a great addition, finally allowing the game to at least give a nod to more heroic archetypes, but, also, probably could have gone farther. The lack of a Martial Controller - all other 4e Sources (Arcane, Divine, Psioinic) covered all 4 roles - also illustrated the lingering disrespect for the source.

There's a good case to be made that Martial classes are simpler because their business is simpler; at its most straightforward, what they do is swing a sword.
Right, and wizards just mumble and wiggle their fingers. Seriously, what's easier, killing a dragon with a bolt of arbitrarily potent magical force from 100' away, or murdering it with a sharp bit of metal? There's nothing simple about what martial characters do. They take on a world overrun with supernatural threats with nothing but wits, skill, physical prowess, will and determination. And the things that the heroes of epic fantasy - fiction or myth/legend - do with those assets are increadible.

It's part of the 'anti-martialist' conciet to hold martial abilities to grim standards of realism, while letting 'magic' do virtually anything. Most heroes of myth and legend were what would be martial characters in D&D. And they were reputed to do increadible - impossible by modern understandings of biology and physics - things. Fantasy RPGs should not be in the business of debunking such archetypes, they should be in the business of modeling them.

This has nothing to do with any kind of assumptions about the nature of people who play Martial classes, and I don't think you should take it as a personal insult that Fighters don't have Daily powers anymore.
It's been clearly put forth many times that the justification for choiceless martial classes is that they are 'simpler,' - what's the point of that, if not for simpleton players who can't handle the more 'advanced' non-martial classes?

(I also think you overestimate the complexity of the Mage/Wizard; there's hardly much nuance to it; most of the time, a Mage's choice boils down to "which spell makes the biggest explosion and does the most damage, and where can I use it to hit the most enemies?"
While the Mage does retain the full choice, complexity, versatility, and peak power of the Wizard (especially since it can use any wizard power), the Mage powers in Essentials /are/ more forgiving of newbie mistakes. More of them target only enemies, for instance and/or don't use attack rolls. That makes them tactically simpler to employ, in play. The building of a Mage is still as complex as any pre-Essentials character, though.

I happen to be a big fan of Martial classes myself, just like you. I didn't have any problem with the AEDU structure for Fighters and Rogues and Warlords, but these days I really honestly believe that the way Essentials does the Martial power source makes a lot more sense.
A good way of understanding what someone means when they try to be diplomatic is to look at what they say, and ignore everything before the 'but.' It's easy to say you like the martial source, but if you're advocating having it stripped of choice and competativeness, you're not much of a supporter of it. And saying you have 'no problem' with one way of doing things, then going on to say another is better is, indeed, having a problem with the first.

By building everything Martial around At-Will powers, we don't have to strain anyone's credulity by trying to explain how a "realistic", physically-based power source has abilities that only work once per day; if you picked up a sword yourself, in real life, is there any way you could think of to swing it that you could do only once each day (barring injuring yourself with the thing)?
There are many things that a fantasy hero could do with a sword that I couldn't do /ever/ in a lifetime of trying. To say that preternatural feats of skill must be as repeatable as hacking at a side of beef with with a wallhanger ignores the whole point of playing an FRPG, rather than an historical simulation.

Martial powers are no more limitted by what's 'realistic' than are spells or divine miracles. To suggest otherwise is to abandon the heroic fantasy genre entirely.

In fact, if you do look at the myth and legend that inspired the genre, you rarely ever see wizards or spell-casting priests in the role of hero or protagonist. That's a much more modern development. Rather, they're in supporting or 'deus ex machina' roles. Similarly, the idea of wizards tossing effective spells in the heat of combat is pretty nearly a video-game trope. Traditionally, magic is a time-consuming undertaking with unpredictable results and often dire consequences for the one invoking it.

An At-Will/basic-attack-based system of powers for Martial characters makes sense. Yes, it's arguably less complex, but there's no reason to assume that's meant as any kind of insult to players, especially since Martial character now (unlike in previous editions) are perfectly capable and combat relevant all the way up to level 30.
4e martial characters were reasonably balanced, across the full 30 levels, and through the full range of play styles. Essentials martial classes are still on the same treadmill as everyone else, so retain some basic combat relevence right through level 30, it's true. However, as they lack the versatility and peak power of dailies and varied encounter powers, their actual contribution remains relatively flat and bland throughout not just their careers, but the full range of play styles. Other classes can be much more effective under some play styles than others, overshadowing the stolid E-martial classes when that happens.
FREX: Many DMs run their campaigns with fewer than the standard 4-5 encounters/day - days passing between encounters is not unusual. These campaigns require tougher encounters to challenge the party, the party responds by busting out dailies more readily to meet the challenge. Any daily-less classes inevitably under-contribute in such campaigns.

Some argue that the balance 4e achieved was heavy handed, that it 'made everyone into wizards' because it gave all classes equal numbers of daily powers. That's an excessively mechanistic view of the game. Yes, the common class structure used in 4e was key to balancing it. But, having the same numbers of powers at the same levels no more made all classes 'the same' than having all classes have hps or use saving throws. Each class chose from it's own unique list of powers and had it's own class features, making it decidedly unique. There's no mistaking a fighter's powers - all weapon-using, exclusively melee and close, virtually all untyped damage - with the wizard's - virtually all implement-using, predominantly range and area with some close, wildly varying damage types and effects.
 

Frankie1969

Adventurer
Essentials design isn't really well defined either, though. The Mage, for example, is largely unchanged from the PHB1 design, except for a few minor details. It's really just a new build for the Wizard. The Warpriest still follows the classic design, only trimmed down. The Slayer and Knight are a complete rework of the mechanics. The Vampire doesn't really follow any kind of design philosophy. You could maybe just call it the classic 4e design put on rails.
The design philosophy in HotFL/K is easily summed up: make the classes more like they were in previous editions. This means wizards have massive spellbooks, clerics have domains, druids have A Thousand Faces, and martial classes say "I attack". (FWIW, as a 0E dino I prefer the philosophy of martial classes having more consistent power output, without dailies).

OTOH, I was surprised they left cavalier AEDU instead of a martial/divine mix. It would have been a perfect fit.

The vampire is on rails, as you say, but it's not really different in design from warpriest (for example) except that it only has a single path. That the class happens to suck is a separate issue.
 
Last edited:

Voidrunner's Codex

Remove ads

Top