Essentialism and a solution to replacing the LA system

[Kerrick]

I'm still confused as to how spreading out the racial abilities over several levels is any different than a LA.

They're a little different. AE turns monster classes into actual classes, where you gain the abilities over levels instead of getting them all dumped on you at once for the cost of 1 or more virtual levels that you'll never be rid of.

Does the monster PC take levels in a racial class to gain these improvements, or do they just accrue as s/he gains levels in a heroic class?

My original idea was something like the first one, but I've since changed it to the second one. The way it works is that your racial HD are converted to class levels you gain levels - the LA actually decreases over time, until it becomes 0. You can check this thread for more details. Basically, it's a version of the "LA buyoff method", though I didn't initially plan it that way. So far I've only done the preliminary work - I haven't touched templates yet, or races with huge amounts of SLA/supernatural abilities (mind flayer, rakshasa).

Also, if the ability bumps are just being gained as levels in a heroic class are also being attained then the character quickly becomes more powerful than other PCs who are more standard races in similar classes. LA is there to prevent this.

Well... I can't really say for sure that you're wrong, or I'm right, because I haven't tested this and the numbers alone don't really say. Since converting racial HD to class levels results in an increase in CR/ECL, I'm fairly sure that it's also accounting for the extra abilities (the LA). As you and Herzog said, LA's biggest impact is at low levels - as you get higher up, all those extra abilities have an increasingly smaller influence on overall power level, as everyone else gets powers of their own, magic items, etc. to make up for the deficit.

Where a certain race's LA might be considered +4 at a lvl 5 party (thus allowing only 1 class lvl) the same race's abilities when viewed at lvl 20 might only be +1 or +2.

That's exactly what I'm doing.

 

[Angrydad]

"Also, if the ability bumps are just being gained as levels in a heroic class are also being attained then the character quickly becomes more powerful than other PCs who are more standard races in similar classes. LA is there to prevent this.

Well... I can't really say for sure that you're wrong, or I'm right, because I haven't tested this and the numbers alone don't really say. Since converting racial HD to class levels results in an increase in CR/ECL, I'm fairly sure that it's also accounting for the extra abilities (the LA). As you and Herzog said, LA's biggest impact is at low levels - as you get higher up, all those extra abilities have an increasingly smaller influence on overall power level, as everyone else gets powers of their own, magic items, etc. to make up for the deficit."

What I'm getting at in the top paragraph is that if a monster PC gains a stat bump, use of a spell like ability, etc. every couple levels while still gaining the powers/abilities of whatever heroic class they've chosen then they're going to be more powerful than players of standard races who are the same class. I also dislike the idea of turning monster races into class levels that they must take to gain the powers, since it seems like this results in much weaker PCs. For example, in the Planar Handbook there is a racial level progression for Hound Archons that consists of 11 levels. By 11th level the archon has six HD, a BA of +6, some nice natural armor, aura of menace, a few resistances, and can greater teleport at will with 50lbs of gear. While the teleportation ability is pretty sweet and the character might have some nice stats thanks to the bumps that have occurred, they're going to be much less effective than a character who was a standard race and just took levels in a class and maybe prestige class to get to 11th level. An 11th level wizard could easily disintegrate the hound archon, or charm/dominate it.

Also, it may be true that a monster PC has a LA that keeps it slightly weaker, but I don't think the rest of the party getting magic items and having slightly more powers from classes will make them more powerful than the monster PC. If the party is dividing loot up fairly, the monster PC should be getting items that buff him/her up as well, so they will continue to be more powerful. I dunno, that's just my experience so far.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

And high level benefits are not balanced against low level benefits, let alone level 1 benefits. Therefore, multiclassing under your system is severely unbalanced. QED.

That's fine, but pretending that's balanced is absurd.

It IS balanced.

Its balanced in the sense that each PC gets the same choices offered to them when leveling. This is what I meant when I said

ME
The spells are not balanced, but the opportunities are.

Every choice- be it in the RW or in a game- involves benefits and costs. Among those costs are "opportunity costs"- all of those other benefits you forgo when you make your decision.

Example 1: I was shopping for a guitar in 2005, and found the Subhuman from Malden. At the time, it was $800. I passed on it, and purchased something else (not a guitar). Shortly thereafter, it was featured in several international guitar magazines. Its now around $1200.

The purchase I made then was good, but it cost me the Malden at the original price. Now I'd have to pay 50% more.

Example 2: Besides my native tongue, I've studied German, French, Latin, Spanish, Japanese, and Russian. The one I've studied the most and from the earliest part of my life- German- is the one in which I'm the most fluent. The last on the list is the one I speak the worst. Each additional language I studied meant time taken away from studying the others, costing me fluency. In addition, the cost of not studying the other languages earlier on in life cost me fluency in those as well. While some lessons applied across languages, I never just jumped to the head of the class in Japanese because of my fluency in German.

Fair & balanced? Sure, because that's the way humans learn- we can't just cut and paste knowledge & skills.

Similarly, a PC in D&D has a choice each time he levels- whether to multiclass or to continue in his original class. If he takes the multiclassing option at a low level, his opportunity cost is (initially) a low level (but still probably more powerful) ability in his original class, which "ripples" as the PC continues to advance, ultimately causing the loss of the original class' pinnacle abilities.

Therefore, multiclassing under my system is balanced because it is fair. QED.

If the player is so concerned about gaining MM as a 14th level PC, he should have taken it at 1st or 2nd.

For Conan (high-level warrior in D&D) to walk into Hogwart's Academy on day 1 (taking his first level of Wizard in D&D), demanding he be taught the school's ultimate secret mageries (any power greater than 1st level) and getting them would be unfair. Its cutting in line; its "social promotion."

In addition, it would contribute to the marginalization of the non-magic using classes. Other than RP reasons, why would anyone toil on as a solo-classed Rogue or Fighter when they'd bypass an incremental improvement in their abilities for gaining an impressive and utterly new magic power? (Classic "Law of Unintended Consequences" consequences.)

And these points relate to balance how? Incidentally, it's not too uncommon for heroic fantasy characters to do these things regularly, not to mention that the single-class ramp is unrealistically fast on its own.

1) They demonstrate the accrual basis for human learning.

2) They illustrate fairness- I'm not allowed to "cut in line" and get top-level benefits of a course of study unless I've actually earned them.

I'll admit the dojo example was probably a bad one- all a person would have to do is demonstrate equivalent skill, which a trained warrior could probably gain quickly (witness Fight Quest)- but I've yet to see Conan toss spells like Gandalf.

Quite simply, nothing about swinging a sword around prepares you for slinging arcane energies about and warping the fabric of reality.

Again, how in the *heck* does you thinking something is realistic (an absurd statement in itself, considering that magic itself is unrealistic, but nevermind) make it balanced? The issues do not overlap. Whether something is realistic or not is irrelevant to whether it is balanced or not.

Realism has nothing to do with the subject of balance. At all.

Sure it does. At the very least, realism the starting point of game design. It provides the foundation upon which various RPG susystems are built.

Realism provides a point of comparison as to whether an RPG's other systems are balanced, and can point the designer in the direction of where tweeks could be made.

Generally, weapons in D&D and most other games provide a very reliable source of damage- swing, hit, damage, repeat. Those who rely on them tend to be tougher sorts- modeled on the athletic phenotype. Magic/Psi/Hi-Tech and other reality warpers are generally more powerful than mere weaponry, but their users tend to be less physically durable- modeled on the "bookish" phenotype. If they weren't, why would anyone seeking "power" choose the former over the latter?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

And high level benefits are not balanced against low level benefits, let alone level 1 benefits. Therefore, multiclassing under your system is severely unbalanced. QED.

<many similar points>

Its fair and balanced in that it doesn't violate the principle of "Opportunity Costs" and introduces no new problems via the Law of Unintended Consequences.

1) Human knowlege is incremental.

2) Systems in which PCs can bypass learning all of the various precursors amount to "cutting in line" or "social promotion." Were a 14th level warrior ("Conan") to walk into a school of Wizardry ("Hogwarts") and after a year of studies (multiclassing into Wiz1) demand to learn magic equivalent to a 15th level Mage...and actually gets to do so? That would be unfair.

3) In this case, the Law of Uninteded Consequences tells us that a system in which PCs can gain high level magic abilities after a minimum of study- our Conan learning Summon Monster VIII as his first spell- further marginalizes the non-magic using classes. By and large, its accepted that after a certain point, the full casters simply outdo half- and non-casters in "power."

A system that lets Conan grab arcane power like above is a further mechanical disinsentive to keep your PC solo classed.

4) Its also unfair from an internal world consistency basis for the same reasons. In such a world, there is no reason NOT to multiclass- those who don't are morons. In such a world, magic academies or willing mentors couldn't teach anything low level and be profitable- why spend time in the middle of nowhere learning this and that unpleasant thing learning arcana when you can do what you want for most of your life, then show up and learn Shapechange over the weekend?

Again, how in the *heck* does you thinking something is realistic (an absurd statement in itself, considering that magic itself is unrealistic, but nevermind) make it balanced? The issues do not overlap. Whether something is realistic or not is irrelevant to whether it is balanced or not.

Realism has nothing to do with the subject of balance. At all.

Sure it does- realism is the launch point and foundation of any good game. If nothing else, it provides the control versus which rules for reality warping effects- magic, psionics, ultratech- can be compared, mechanical incentives examined.