Essentials Magic Missile

[Korgoth]

Well, then it's obviously not a minion! In fact, a level 35 minion is worth 11,750 XP; compare to the level 19 solo: 12,000 XP. So, XP-wise (and hence power-wise) they're roughly equivalent - meaning the level 1 character would see the Daikaiju Citystomper as a level 19 solo.

Or as a level 24 elite. Or a level 27 normal monster. Depending on your level.

Only characters in the level 35 region would treat it as minion.

Cheers, LT.

Ah, but I don't believe that. Those statblocks aren't in MM4. There's the Daikaiju Citystomper Minion, L35, and there's the Daikaiju Nukelizard (Level 38 Solo Artillery). And there's the Daikaiju Hatchling (Level 10 Elite Brute). And that's it... that's all there is. Those Level 19s and 24s and 27s you mentioned aren't in there.

I was just being funny with the example, but I've actually heard this "minions are relative" argument repeated often. I think people say it a lot but I don't think it actually has anything to do with 4e. I'm not saying you're putting me on... but think about it. What happens to the Level 19 Flumph Marquis when the PCs are Level 29. Does he become the Level 6 Flumph Bravo Minion? No... he's not a Bravo, he's a Marquis. And he's not Level 6, he's Level 19. And some monster entries don't even have minions.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Actually there should have been rules somewhere wo minionize and solofy...

minions are relative. No doubt. But it takes a bit more effort to make it work ruleswise. but the system is really based on this assumption. Look at the drow slave goblins (MM2) as a good example. There is one at level 3 or something. and one 9 levels higher. This is about how it should be with more monsters and their minion versions. At low level however it doesn´t work that way, as oviously you can´t have goblins level -7. But there you usually should use a lot of minions and only 2 or 3 tough goblin leaders.

 

[Korgoth]

minions are relative. No doubt. But it takes a bit more effort to make it work ruleswise. but the system is really based on this assumption.

It really seems to be an assumption based on the system, not a system based on that assumption. I still don't see any evidence for it.

If that's how you want to play it, that's cool. But I don't see how it follows from the books.

A minion is a minor character that does not even necessary have a name. He's "Biker 4" or "Myrmidon 2" or whatever. That doesn't mean he's a punk. That doesn't mean that when Myrmidon 2 attacks a Trojan peasant that he's a Level 80 Elite Solo Brute, but when he attacks Hector he's a Level 4 Soldier. Then the terms are all meaningless.

I can look in a 4E monster book and find a monster statblock. It tells me what level the monster is, what its role is, and how its powers work. The Xvart Atlatlists don't put down their Atlatls and become Xvart Kukrimasters because a character of a different level walked into the room. And what happens when two characters of different levels enter the room? Does one character see a Xvart with an Atlatl and the other sees that same Xvart brandishing a Kukri? It's insane.

 

[I'm A Banana]

But what if it's an AC 50 Level 35 Daikaiju Citystomper Minion? Like you could kill it at Level 1 and then you'd be like Level 10 in an instant.

Of course, those 9 levels could all be pure ego....

Personally, I think the problems with this are more problems with the minion concept in general than problems with autodamage MM. Minions are an explicitly narrative convenience for a DM who wants to represent the "mook horde." They're not meant to hold up equally under all assaults, because they are things that break the rules by their very existence. People have been complaining since day 1 about the logic of epic-level 1hp critters, about no-damage-on-a-miss power wasting, about identifying them vs. the rest of the monster hoard, about how, with a well-designed hp scaling system, they'd be unnecessary, etc.

But minions are a very specific, very limited tool not meant to go beyond their reach. Minions and solos, especially, are not supposed to go beyond the guidelines for encounter designs specified in the DMG. If they do, problems instantly and frequently crop up, either with the mechanics, or with the logic of the thing.

Fortunately, if you don't like the way minions are reacting to your party's new auto-killin' wizard, you can always not use them.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

A minion is a minor character that does not even necessary have a name. He's "Biker 4" or "Myrmidon 2" or whatever. That doesn't mean he's a punk. That doesn't mean that when Myrmidon 2 attacks a Trojan peasant that he's a Level 80 Elite Solo Brute, but when he attacks Hector he's a Level 4 Soldier. Then the terms are all meaningless.

Not at all. They're just defined cinematically.

Stormtroopers are wicked scary to peasants on Tatooine and generic Rebel soldiers. They might as well be a Level 80 Elite Solo Brute when fighting such people. Effectively, they are, for narrative reasons, as much as anything.

But once a Jedi, a Skywalker relative, or a smuggler is on the screen, they are instantly transmogrified into minions, there to be dispatched quickly and cleanly unless they have vastly superior numbers and/or some heavies with them.

Have you ever noticed that Princess Leia practically never misses a Stormtrooper? Clearly a controller. Possibly leader/controller hybrid. But I digress.

 

[WhatGravitas]

If that's how you want to play it, that's cool. But I don't see how it follows from the books.

Actually, the MM1 does imply it, there are several examples:

The Angel of Valor is a level 8 standard monster, but there are higher level minion versions of it (level 11, 16, 21). Together with the description that they are the rank-and-file angels, I think it's not too far-fetched to think that this means that for level 8 parties, the Angel is a "real" monster, while higher level characters can mow through them (hence the minion state).

Again, there Azers - level 14/15 standard monsters, but level 17 minions. Ghouls are level 5, but have level 13 minion versions, similarly Abyssal Ghouls. Grimlocks are level 11 and 13 monsters, but there are level 14 and level 22 minions. Full-fledged Kuo-Toas start at level 12, the minions at level 16. Normal Ogres are level 8 and 11. The Ogre minions are level 11 and 16.

If you go through the MMs, there are a couple of other examples following that trend. So while it is not true for *every* monster, only for those that you can expect to appear in hordes/armies, I wouldn't say that the idea of monster->minion is totally far-fetched, but rather something that is implied in the MMs at least a couple of times.

Cheers, LT.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Actually, Ghouls are the best example, as both versions give the same xp. Exactly the same monster, but different implementations depending on party level.

Ogers are a close call, as the level range is so close, that you can use them in the same fight.

 

[pemerton]

Minions and solos, especially, are not supposed to go beyond the guidelines for encounter designs specified in the DMG. If they do, problems instantly and frequently crop up, either with the mechanics, or with the logic of the thing.

I agree with this. I just wanted to add that, as far as I am concerned, this is a feature and not a bug. For me at least, one reason for preferring 4e over other fantasy RPGs that I am familiar with and could be GMing instead is that it has solid encounter-building guidelines, and well-designed monsters for using in accordance with those guidelines.

I've had a lot of experience GMing a system - Rolemaster - in which the monster design reflected purist-for-system simulationist priorities. Such a system makes it easy to draw upon the game mechanics to answer hypothetical questions about world design, relative strength of monsters, likely ecologies, etc. But it is very hard, in such a system, to reliably build encounters that will play out well at the table.

From my point of view, 4e's sacrifice of monster stats as world-buidling tools in favour of monster stats as encounter-building tools is a very good thing. I can build a world without needing stats to guide me, but I can't run an RPG without relying on the stats. I therefore very much appreciate 4e's front-and-centre focus on actual play at the table.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I have to admit that I like the idea of 'the same' monster being a Solo to a low level party, a regular monster to a higher level one, and a minion to much higher level one. It works so much better than using profoundly over- or under-leveled monsters in 3.x and before. I mean, you want to do the whole Tolkien epic battle thing with hordes of orcs, and it's a farce in any prior ed, the players can't miss, the monsters can't hit, you end up running a bunch of 5% numbers rather than try and roll through the whole damn thing.

Hordes of level-apropriate minions in 4e, OTOH, that can work. The PCs can mow through them, they can still hurt the PCs.


Not in a 'game world law of physics,' simulationist way, though. Just in the sense that when you pick or design a monster, it's stats describe the challenge it presents to PCs. The encounter system doesn't work with monsters far above or below your level, so, if you party faces a monster that's supposed to be a challenge you actually fight, the DM is rather obliged to stat it out in a level-apropriate fashion. If it's supposed to be very powerful and take on the whole party, it's a solo, if it's just supposed to maybe manage to scream before they kill it, it's a minion. The exact same monster could be statted differently depending on which PC party comes knocking on the door of it's lair.


There is no "what kind of nondeterministic quantum state is a monster in when a 19th level party walks in through the front door of it's lair, and a 4th level party walks in through the back?" You don't run a game for a party of mixed 4th and 19th level characters. Either the PCs are 4th, and the 19th level characters are uber-NPCs that probably represent some sort of Skill Challenge (with a side of Deus ex Machina, perhaps), or the PCs are 19th, and the 4th level guys are 'innocents' they're to try to rescue (or at least avoid killing the crossfire). Either way, the NPCs will be statted according to the role they play in the PCs' story.