Essentials nostalgia - the death of martial healing

[UngainlyTitan]

We all understand that, but you miss the point. [/QUOTE}
Well yeah, obviously I did, that is why I asked? I was not sure it you were one of the "Oh noes! the sky is falling" or if you actually had a point

Anyone picking up the game from now on will be picking up Essentials. Its rather unlikely that the PHB etc will show up again. Unless players go out of their way to acquire older material it DOES become unavailable. You can I can play, but it will become 'that old PHB stuff' over time. Something that you could theoretically use, IF you can find the book(s).

Well they are not out of print yet. I know that the essentials is slated to be always in print even if other stuff is not but so far as far as I know nothing is out of print yet.
So in the future when the PHB1 is out of print you could start morning the loss of the warlord but I suspect that will be a while yet and
as of right now we do not know how WoTC plan to evolve the edition over time.
I pretty sure that they will continue to support existing classes in books and in Dragon.

I know, the "Its all in DDI" argument comes next, but really do many people go look up obsolescent material in DDI to use? Sure once in a while someone will, but if something is out of print it isn't really a first class part of the game anymore.

Its not going to affect MY game anytime soon, but that's different from its effect on the future of the game itself. Of course there could well be a 'Player Options: Lost Heroes' next year that refreshes warlord and other so far non-Essentialized classes. I personally would welcome that a lot and hope it happens. Warlord was one of the very few really significant solid classes that has been added to the game basically since the Barbarian 20 years ago.

Well it is in the DDI and you really only need "Player Option: Lost Heros" to appear after the PHB1 is out of print.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

This would be valid if leaders pre-Essentials were somehow made irrelevant, when it's not the case. Warlords are one of the best supported leaders in 4th edition, having 2 supplement books (MP, MP2) and the strongest overall PHB builds. If anyone tells me a taclord is unplayable, I am going to say they have no idea what they are talking about and they shouldn't be allowed another opinion ever. Warlords are the best leader in 4th edition.

Odd, I was just saying Warlord is one of the best classes in 4e and its like I got an expose on how good the Warlord is. Preaching to the quire there . Yes, it is well supported. I don't really have an issue FOR MYSELF with it not showing up in Essentials. I just think its a shame that Essentials is basically back to where we were with leaders in Men and Monsters in 1975. Anyone coming into the game going forward will have no other option but cleric, which pretty much means if you are playing Essentials we're back to "someone has to play the cleric". I think you're confounding what I said with what some other posters have said. I totally agree that 4e PHBx classes will remain PLAYABLE, just not necessarily AVAILABLE. Its about what Essentials is AS a 4e game, not just what it is within the larger Essentials plus existing 4e.

Well they are not out of print yet. I know that the essentials is slated to be always in print even if other stuff is not but so far as far as I know nothing is out of print yet.
So in the future when the PHB1 is out of print you could start morning the loss of the warlord but I suspect that will be a while yet and
as of right now we do not know how WoTC plan to evolve the edition over time.
I pretty sure that they will continue to support existing classes in books and in Dragon.

Well, we have no idea if they are still in print or not actually. We know that stores still as of now have existing stock and WotC may have a warehouse full of them, or they may not. With considerations of inventory management, brand management, and general focus I'd be surprised if the PHB, DMG, and Power series of books remain in print. I'd guess if you want one you'll still be able to dig one up somewhere and they're likely to be easy to find still for some time, but I bet they don't order any new printings.

I'd also expect that we'll see Dragon stuff on the old classes fall away rapidly too. There is almost certain to be some in the pipeline that will still show up over say the next 6 months, but beyond that I'd be surprised if explicitly old 4e supporting articles appear. Remember, they're going to want to load on the support for this new product, so they're certainly going to want to crank out a lot of articles supporting Essentials classes ASAP starting when its released so that anyone picking it up and grabbing a DDI subscription will see stuff THEY can use that was written with their material in mind.

I definitely hope new books come out with revised Warlords and other classes, obviously. Again, its not a big deal to me personally in my play of the game. I just hate to the 4e turning away from some of the things that have made D&D a better game, and Warlords are a pretty nice new feature. It would suck if they just faded away into obscurity.

 

[LostSoul]

You know what might be interesting for a martial/inspirational healer, though? Powers that are dependent on the actions of the recipient of the healing. For instance:

INSPIRING WORD

That's really cool. The only time I tried to take a stab at martial healing I ended up getting rid of HP.

My problem with Warlords was the healing from unconsciousness. You can explain it, but doing so many times ruins it for me. In my game I just threw up my hands and said, "Inspiring Word is magic." Your solution takes away the unconsciousness issue, and that's the key for me.

 

[Garthanos]

My problem with Warlords was the healing from unconsciousness. You can explain it, but doing so many times ruins it for me. In my game I just threw up my hands and said, "Inspiring Word is magic." Your solution takes away the unconsciousness issue, and that's the key for me.

People have been known to hear things even from out of a coma.. .at least that is a very solid myth. But at some level the WWF federation style jumping back to your feet is something I am just letting slide its part of the story tension - that I need to ummm turn off my plausibility meter down for. If fightin evil were not so darn frequent in these games (cant we all just get along) not sure it would be a problem

.... did I just agree with you?

 

[Klaus]

That's really cool. The only time I tried to take a stab at martial healing I ended up getting rid of HP.

My problem with Warlords was the healing from unconsciousness. You can explain it, but doing so many times ruins it for me. In my game I just threw up my hands and said, "Inspiring Word is magic." Your solution takes away the unconsciousness issue, and that's the key for me.

That's exactly the problem I tried to avoid upthread, by changing "hit" to "hit or roll a saving throw".

 

[Aegeri]

That's really cool. The only time I tried to take a stab at martial healing I ended up getting rid of HP.

My problem with Warlords was the healing from unconsciousness. You can explain it, but doing so many times ruins it for me. In my game I just threw up my hands and said, "Inspiring Word is magic." Your solution takes away the unconsciousness issue, and that's the key for me.

It also makes the Warlord the most unquestionably useless healer in 4E if absolutely anything goes wrong. Unconsciousness is the most strong condition on a PC, especially when you bear in mind it grants CA and has helpless (-5 all defenses) for a massive +7 to hit for any creature. With increased damage from monsters no longer making their attacks a joke, you've just guaranteed a party member is dead if they go down (auras, zones, a coup de grace multiple attack power etc).

Nobody would play a Warlord if they're unable to do anything when PCs are in their most vulnerable and likely to die state.

 

[Garthanos]

OK back to the point...

Warlords represent some very fundamental concepts in the latest edition of D&D. The emphasis of team play having actual mechanics to enable it. The full adoption of the implications of abstract hit points. The fog of war (positioning is technically abstract only becoming less so when influenced by powers). And its even the leader you see in the movies and fiction source material.

Making this class not seem one of the front line for newbies (ironically even if it isn't the best one for them to play) is in my an opinion a mistake.

Does essentials REALLY target newbies or rather is it targeting grognards of previous editions? Artwork and class (or build selections for us) the whole nine yards say the latter to me.

Shrug.

 

[Aegeri]

The warlord is the most tactically complex and rules fiddly class. It is not very likely to be something you use for new players, because getting the most out of it really does require work and management of multiple stats.

 

[Hawkeye]

1) Your party reliably and consistently wins initiative - with "Penalty box" formation this means you can get out of every burst. Ever seen what happens to a party in penalty box formation that rolls poorly on initiative? You should try a non-warlord party in LFR and find out.

I'm not familiar with this term. Can you please explain it?

Hawkeye

 

[Aegeri]

I'm not familiar with this term. Can you please explain it?

Hawkeye

Penalty box refers to the party starting in say a 3x2 or 3x3 square at the start of battle all adjacent to one another. In many modules with area or burst creatures, this can mean much of the party is massacred before moving if the creatures get surprise (DDE Dark Sun encounter 3 is an example of how terrible this is when designed with equally as poor creatures/surprise round).

Edit: It can also refer to beginning combat in a small enclosed space with little room to move out of, a 2x6 corridor leading to a door into the "room" with the encounter is another example.