Eternals (Spoilers)

Stalker0

Legend
Because . . . genre.
My counter to your counter is that the MCU is no longer set up as a series of self contained movies. Each movie sets up a piece and continues the grander "MCU".

When a film noir movie occurs, it operates under the rules of film noir....which is fine. But all of these movies operate in the same scope, with a "quasi realistic earth". Aka some measure of logic is meant to be applied.

In one film we establish that a group of super heroes will unite to face a large threat. Then in the next movie, against a threat that is equal or even greater than the previous one, no one makes a phone call. In a series of individual movies that are intended to be completely stand alone, I can respect that.... but not in an MCU where other characters are literally referenced by name. These people know the other people exist, heck are often colleagues with them. So the idea that these relatively smart people wouldn't make the very logical and smart call to bring in some big players when the world is about to blow up.... that just really strains credibility.

The same thing with the celestials. Its established that the celestials have a plan that can be comprehended, at the end of the day its a pretty simple plot.... grow a new celestial by absorbing all the people on a planet. So the celestial seems to act in a reasonably logical way. So again this makes the extremely illogical decisions just that much more obvious. If they had gone with "the celestials are just inscrutible in their logic and ways"....ok, that works for me, I can respect that ungodly powerful and utterly alien beings wouldn't have any thought process like my own.

Now again I can strain my disbelief, but the movie keeps hammering it in. For example, I could think "okay they are machines, but they kind of grow in their own unique and special ways which is why they are all different, like a baller fractal pattern". Except then the movie tells me "we built the eternals to have no deviation and be just exactly what we want"... which tosses my rationalizations out the window. The movie on the one hand tells me Eternals are cookie cutter....but then gives me a diverse and unique cast because......because?


Now the Eternals is certainly not the only MCU movie that has this problem, and plenty of nonMCU movies have this issue as well. But ultimately for me in part its the enjoyment factor. When I am super engrossed in a movie, I ignore the nitpicks. When I'm sitting in my chair kind of bored....nitpicks is all I can think about. For example the new Spiderman has plenty of actual issues when you dig into it....but I don't care, it was fun, thoughtful, emotional, and a great ride....so I ignored those things and moved on. Eternals for me just moved a bit too slowly.
 

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Ryujin

Legend
My counter to your counter is that the MCU is no longer set up as a series of self contained movies. Each movie sets up a piece and continues the grander "MCU".

When a film noir movie occurs, it operates under the rules of film noir....which is fine. But all of these movies operate in the same scope, with a "quasi realistic earth". Aka some measure of logic is meant to be applied.

In one film we establish that a group of super heroes will unite to face a large threat. Then in the next movie, against a threat that is equal or even greater than the previous one, no one makes a phone call. In a series of individual movies that are intended to be completely stand alone, I can respect that.... but not in an MCU where other characters are literally referenced by name. These people know the other people exist, heck are often colleagues with them. So the idea that these relatively smart people wouldn't make the very logical and smart call to bring in some big players when the world is about to blow up.... that just really strains credibility.

The same thing with the celestials. Its established that the celestials have a plan that can be comprehended, at the end of the day its a pretty simple plot.... grow a new celestial by absorbing all the people on a planet. So the celestial seems to act in a reasonably logical way. So again this makes the extremely illogical decisions just that much more obvious. If they had gone with "the celestials are just inscrutible in their logic and ways"....ok, that works for me, I can respect that ungodly powerful and utterly alien beings wouldn't have any thought process like my own.

Now again I can strain my disbelief, but the movie keeps hammering it in. For example, I could think "okay they are machines, but they kind of grow in their own unique and special ways which is why they are all different, like a baller fractal pattern". Except then the movie tells me "we built the eternals to have no deviation and be just exactly what we want"... which tosses my rationalizations out the window. The movie on the one hand tells me Eternals are cookie cutter....but then gives me a diverse and unique cast because......because?


Now the Eternals is certainly not the only MCU movie that has this problem, and plenty of nonMCU movies have this issue as well. But ultimately for me in part its the enjoyment factor. When I am super engrossed in a movie, I ignore the nitpicks. When I'm sitting in my chair kind of bored....nitpicks is all I can think about. For example the new Spiderman has plenty of actual issues when you dig into it....but I don't care, it was fun, thoughtful, emotional, and a great ride....so I ignored those things and moved on. Eternals for me just moved a bit too slowly.
If the origin of the Eternals as forcefully evolved and empowered early humans had been kept intact, instead of this change for.... reasons?, then the differing powers of the individual characters would have been far less of an issue, I suspect.
 




MarkB

Legend
My main problem was that basically Arishem and Tiamut came across as discount Galactus, with the Eternals filling in for both the Silver Surfer and the Fantastic Four. And it seems really weird for Marvel to be doing a discount Galactus story.
 

GreyLord

Legend
Well, some of my thoughts.

Does this mean that Thanos...was the good guy?

If we take it that his "brother" we see at the end of the movie credits is an eternal...would that mean Thanos was ALSO an "eternal"

If Thanos was an eternal and discovered this plot to destroy entire civilizations by having celestials destroy them in their births, than it would be logical if he could reduce the population sizes...he could at least delay, if not deny, the birth of the celestials and the destruction of civilizations.

Of course, it wasn't that brilliant (as many pointed out, it just delays the inevitable)...BUT, he figures this out and figures that in order to REALLY succeed he actually has to wipe everything out and start anew (endgame)...with that in mind (though it is in theory worse than what the Celestials do) he might be able to break the pattern by destroying the Celestials outright and creating a universe with intelligent life where no Celestial pattern is around.

Thus, if we view it in that odd way...it could mean that Thanos was actually...right...in a little bit of a way???

Thanos was the good guy???

PS: On the movie itself...I found it kind of boring. I'm not sure why, I just found my mind constantly wandering and me wanting to do other things than watch the movie.
 
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Janx

Hero
For me, it's that the main character doesn't make a choice at the end that she couldn't make at the beginning.

In their intro movies, Iron Man, Thor, Spidey, Doctor Strange, and Black Panther each get humbled, which gives them perspective. Captain Marvel realizes she's been gas-lit and doesn't have to prove anything to the people she once was subservient to. The Guardians of the Galaxy realize their petty selfishness is going to get a lot of innocent people hurt, and they decide to give a naughty word for a change.

(Captain America is basically the perfect human in his first movie, but in his second movie he gets disillusioned about working for the powers that be.)

But about the only thing about Sersi that changes in Eternals is her knowledge of the situation, and her ability to use her powers. She doesn't undergo that much of a change, right? Her morals stay the same.

I think to fix that, you could maybe have Sersi be the one interacting with the smart deviant?
You're right, but.

It turns out not all stories have to have that. (somebody elsewhen asked and I looked it up). Captain Kirk of nuTrek being used as an example. He thought he was right and it turns out he was right. Everybody else had to change, to accept his rightness.

Just an example.

It's also possible you've misdiagnosed her arc. She went from not being the leader, powerful, or significant (literally the example she gave of her powers made it sound so lame). Even when anointed by Ajak as the NewBoss, she didn't accept it and others questioned it. For an enlightened bunch, I puzzled over why Kingo and Sprite clung to Might makes Right doctrine to support Icaris as leader. Granted, they were biased. :)
 

Janx

Hero
My main problem was that basically Arishem and Tiamut came across as discount Galactus, with the Eternals filling in for both the Silver Surfer and the Fantastic Four. And it seems really weird for Marvel to be doing a discount Galactus story.
I was gonna say this felt like a Galactus thing, especially when Arishem showed up at the end....

Overall, the move was OK. I liked the diverse cast. I wish Kingo hadn't not just quit and left, but came back (somebody said he returned, I didn't see it). I liked him the best, so this heel turn sucked.

The valet was awesome, and I would hope his footage would be released, and thus explain the whole thing to Earth.

I am not keen on massive defacements of the planet. Like Chairface carving his name on the moon, it just looks silly.

I assume Dane is going to become Captain Brittain or something? Guessing that's excalibur and he's a descendant of Arthur.

The whole Eros, brother of Thanos just sounded stupid. I'm sure it's from the comics, but stupid sounding stuff sounds stupid. An aborted character intro and a stupid one is not what we need in these clip scenes. Give us bits that hint at the next actual problem. Like Thanos grumbling in his chair or Yelena finding out who killed her sister.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
For an enlightened bunch, I puzzled over why Kingo and Sprite clung to Might makes Right doctrine to support Icaris as leader.

Thousands of years where their highest priority was fighting might have had something to do with it. We can add to that how he seems to have been Ajak's right hand for most of that time, such that the assumption would have been that he'd take command. Choosing Sersi was a surprise, and there was no explanation, making it harder to accept.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
I assume Dane is going to become Captain Brittain or something? Guessing that's excalibur and he's a descendant of Arthur.

If you want to know...
In the film, they specifically note Thena playing around with Excalibur on the Eternal's ship, so Dane doesn't have that.

In the comics, Dane Whitman is the descendant of the Black Knight, and wields the Ebony Blade. The Ebony Blade is powerful, but cursed, which is why Dane has such a struggle over picking it up in the post-credits scene

The whole Eros, brother of Thanos just sounded stupid.

Eros/Starfox is stupid. Not just in the movie, but in the comics, he's an overconfident jackass with emotion control powers that are kind of non-consensual. Really problematic stuff.

However, there's a note in his introduction that is... extremely interesting.

Starfox arrives with Pip, and introduces himself as the brother of Thanos (which is consistent with the comics). He also addresses the people on the ship as "my fellow Eternals" or words to that effect.

And there, we have to stop for a second. Thanos claims to be a Titan. Unless there's adoption involved, that means Eros is also a Titan. That implies that the Titans are Eternals, but not under Arishem's rule. Interesting that Arishem would not stop one of his own creations from eliminating half the population he needs to birth new Celestials, isn't it?

Mind you, we know that Arishem can and will lie. And I find his claim that Celestials are responsible for star formation to be... extremely unsatisfying. I would rather take it that Arishem is lying like a rug.

The comics origins are that the Celestials created both Deviants and Eternals - that part is fine. But in the comics, neither group is under the control of the Celestials. I suspect that Marvel is aiming for this as well - Arishem has some Eternals on various planets, but they have this tendency of breaking away when confronted with the truth. The memory erasure is more likely about maintaining them as servants than about "relieving the burden of memory".
 


My main issue with the movie is that it basically all the Eternals kinda felt like they were sketches of characters more than actual characters. Basically all the "characters development" happens through montage (usually action montage) and "conflict" flashbacks that are consistently focused on "the grand scheme of things".

We're meant to believe Sersi and Ikaris have loved each other for millenia, but it's not even clear at any point what they even like about the other. Hell it's barely apparent they even know anything about each other beyond how dreamy the borh are. Their entire "romance" as shown is just a series of historical cuddlings.

It's especially problematic because Sersi and Ikaris are on screen basically the entire runtime and they don't seem to do anything more than service the plot and bring the viewer to the more interesting characters (Seriously, we could have used a bunch more Gilgamesh, Phaistos, Druig, and Makkari).

I think the reason is that there is too much time setting up and resolving "threats". And the threats frankly aren't that interesting, and, pretty early on, we get to know too much about them through zero effort on the part of our protagonists. We're just...told..about one big celestial baby and some number of undermanaged exterminators..ok. Do either of these threats have an agenda or a motive? Not really, they just kinda exist so our characters can fight them or talk about them.

And, what's more, the stakes aren't that high for the team since they'll all reset anyway. It's just all the "love" the good guys have for humanity despite very little evidence of relationships with humans. Sersi has one pretty new boyfriend and zero friends. Boyfriend is on screen less than 10 minutes. Phaistos has a husband and young child..on screen less than 5 minutes. Druig has some cultists/slaves. Makkari is just hanging on the spaceship. Theena and Gil are hiding out in the desert. Sprite has one dude they hit on in a bar. Ajak is just kind of on a farm somewhere. And then there is Kingo...Kingo has a valet, his valet has lots of screen time, he's very charismatic. He's with Kingo for decades, easily the most significant representative for humanity in the entire film. And Kingo's like "F that guy. I trust Broody McBrooderson over here. What we really need a new featureless giant god."

It was still an entertaining movie along the way with a few nice action pieces. It just all felt a little toothless.

Edit: it's weird to kind of end up ranting about a movie you enjoyed. C'est la vie?
 
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Janx

Hero
Thousands of years where their highest priority was fighting might have had something to do with it. We can add to that how he seems to have been Ajak's right hand for most of that time, such that the assumption would have been that he'd take command. Choosing Sersi was a surprise, and there was no explanation, making it harder to accept.
yes, but they also had since the 1600s of not fighting and coming to other conclusions.

Nobody'd been in command for that long.

it can go either way, but I found "he's the strongest" as the crappiest argument and sign of defective thinking for choosing a leader. period.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
yes, but they also had since the 1600s of not fighting and coming to other conclusions.

They arrive 7000 years ago, and them spend only 400 years or so not on a wartime footing. So, like 6% of their time. And that 6% is spent essentially leaderless - the arrangement really implies that leaders are for times of fighting. So, that non-fighting time is not spent thinking about leadership.

And, when they need a leader again, it is in a time of fighting, at first blush against the old enemy. Falling back into old thought patterns seems perfectly natural there.

...I found "he's the strongest" as the crappiest argument and sign of defective thinking for choosing a leader. period.

Don't get me wrong - I agree that it is a crappy argument. However, it is also a natural and understandable argument to make (at least for human psychology, which is largely what we see in the Eternals).
 

MarkB

Legend
My main issue with the movie is that it basically all the Eternals kinda felt like they were sketches of characters more than actual characters. Basically all the "characters development" happens through montage (usually action montage) and "conflict" flashbacks that are consistently focused on "the grand scheme of things".

We're meant to believe Sersi and Ikaris have loved each other for millenia, but it's not even clear at any point what they even like about the other. Hell it's barely apparent they even know anything about each other beyond how dreamy the borh are. Their entire "romance" as shown is just a series of historical cuddlings.

It's especially problematic because Sersi and Ikaris are on screen basically the entire runtime and they don't seem to do anything more than service the plot and bring the viewer to the more interesting characters (Seriously, we could have used a bunch more Gilgamesh, Phaistos, Druig, and Makkari).

I think the reason is that there is too much time setting up and resolving "threats". And the threats frankly aren't that interesting, and, pretty early on, we get to know too much about them through zero effort on the part of our protagonists. We're just...told..about one big celestial baby and some number of undermanaged exterminators..ok. Do either of these threats have an agenda or a motive? Not really, they just kinda exist so our characters can fight them or talk about them.

And, what's more, the stakes aren't that high for the team since they'll all reset anyway. It's just all the "love" the good guys have for humanity despite very little evidence of relationships with humans. Sersi has one pretty new boyfriend and zero friends. Boyfriend is on screen less than 10 minutes. Phaistos has a husband and young child..on screen less than 5 minutes. Druig has some cultists/slaves. Makkari is just hanging on the spaceship. Theena and Gil are hiding out in the desert. Sprite has one dude they hit on in a bar. Ajak is just kind of on a farm somewhere. And then there is Kingo...Kingo has a valet, his valet has lots of screen time, he's very charismatic. He's with Kingo for decades, easily the most significant representative for humanity in the entire film. And Kingo's like "F that guy. I trust Broody McBrooderson over here. What we really need a new featureless giant god."

It was still an entertaining movie along the way with a few nice action pieces. It just all felt a little toothless.

Edit: it's weird to kind of end up ranting about a movie you enjoyed. C'est la vie?
The characters didn't feel very original. They actually lampshade how like Superman Ikarus is, and most of the rest are existing supers with the serial numbers filed off. And the way their powers manifest is just Doctor Strange magic only a little tidier.

It all felt rather obvious. I didn't specifically think of the whole Celestial-egg thing, but I was expecting it to turn out that the Celestials had made the Deviants ever since the opening exposition.
 

My main problem was that basically Arishem and Tiamut came across as discount Galactus, with the Eternals filling in for both the Silver Surfer and the Fantastic Four. And it seems really weird for Marvel to be doing a discount Galactus story.

Galactus is more powerful than any single Celestial, so it fits.
 

Ryujin

Legend
They arrive 7000 years ago, and them spend only 400 years or so not on a wartime footing. So, like 6% of their time. And that 6% is spent essentially leaderless - the arrangement really implies that leaders are for times of fighting. So, that non-fighting time is not spent thinking about leadership.

And, when they need a leader again, it is in a time of fighting, at first blush against the old enemy. Falling back into old thought patterns seems perfectly natural there.



Don't get me wrong - I agree that it is a crappy argument. However, it is also a natural and understandable argument to make (at least for human psychology, which is largely what we see in the Eternals).
Now I would buy that argument, if the original leader wasn't the party's healer.
 


The characters didn't feel very original. They actually lampshade how like Superman Ikarus is, and most of the rest are existing supers with the serial numbers filed off. And the way their powers manifest is just Doctor Strange magic only a little tidier.

It all felt rather obvious. I didn't specifically think of the whole Celestial-egg thing, but I was expecting it to turn out that the Celestials had made the Deviants ever since the opening exposition.
It's interesting. I didn't mind the power similarity so much. What I did mind was that they pretty consistently seemed to only be as powerful as was necessary to move the plot. And the range of individual power levels for that purpose was too great. Ikaris, Gil and Theena can all solo the deviants until it's inconvenient for them to be that powerful.

Edit: and we're meant to think that this group that is struggling to take on 1-3 deviants midway through the movie is the same group that killed alllll of the deviants as of 400 years ago.

I do think though, that, if you know you're superheroes powers are similar to another's, then your priority should be on showing the person behind the powers, and they mostly didn't.
 

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