EU Vice-president says once a video game is sold, it is owned by the customer.

A thing and a limited license to have access to said thing, while related, are not synonymous.
Sure, but there's a reason you keep using a very bad "movie ticket" analogy instead of referring to actual game and software licences, isn't there? This isn't a situation where an analogy is needed or helps understanding. In fact it significantly mars understanding to unnecessarily use an analogy here. Especially one for a completely different kind of passively-viewed once media. It's so weird that you pick "movie ticket" not "movie you 'permanently bought' on Prime Video" or something - especially as today, of all days, MS/Xbox said they were shutting down all movie/TV sales via MS storefronts, BUT were maintaining access to stuff people already bought by creating an app for that (not ideal but it shows they're afraid to just go "lol we're cutting u off", even though under US law and their EULAs they almost certainly could).

And for most intents and purposes, until the last ten years or so, when companies have completely abandoned all pretence of being in any way fair or decent or consumer-friendly, solely because they can, game and software licences tended to effectively be the same as owning the game or software as a physical object. You didn't get free updates forever or w/e, but you did de facto own that game or piece of software. It couldn't be remotely turned off or otherwise bricked, by and large. Games weren't generally made online-only for no reason but greed, or hooked to DRM systems or the like that would be one day turned off without any plan to patch the DRM out (even to this day companies do often patch out DRM before end-of-life, it's just no longer reliable).

There's no real reason we shouldn't revert to that situation, and indeed go a little further, and put a small burden on companies to not make games online-only without some kind of plan for end-of-service which isn't just giving two middle fingers to the people who paid for the game.
 
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Sure, but there's a reason you keep using a very bad "movie ticket" analogy instead of referring to actual game and software licences, isn't there? This isn't a situation where an analogy is needed or helps understanding. In fact it significantly mars understanding to unnecessarily use an analogy here.

And for most intents and purposes, until the last ten years or so, when companies have completely abandoned all pretence of being in any way fair or decent or consumer-friendly, solely because they can, game and software licences tended to effectively the same as owning the game as a physical object. You didn't get free updates forever or w/e, but you did de facto own that piece of software.

There's no real reason we shouldn't revert to that situation, and indeed go a little further, and put a small burden on companies to not make games online-only without some kind of plan for end-of-service which isn't just giving two middle fingers to the people who paid for the game.

Earlier, I posted a quote directly from Steam.

Similar to Steam, Playstation network operates in a similar way. The license agreement you agree to when purchasing a digital game specifies that Sony retains ownership and can revoke access under certain conditions, such as if the game is removed from the store.

I do agree that how things currently are is kinda bs. (Though, some companies go so far as to maintain this was also the case when selling physical products; owning a CD meant ownership over the physical CD but not the contained information.)

To offer another game example: You don't necessarily own anything that you might purchase on D&D Beyond. You are granted a license to digital access to game content through the D&D Beyond service, but you don't get ownership of the game content.
 

Similar to Steam, Playstation network operates in a similar way. The license agreement you agree to when purchasing a digital game specifies that Sony retains ownership and can revoke access under certain conditions, such as if the game is removed from the store.
Sure, and that might have to change. It can still be a licencing agreement, but they might have to allow you to make backups or w/e, and as per the differences with the Switch 2 in US vs EU, they might not legally be able to remotely brick the game. If it was removed from the store, depending on the legislation or ruling, the company might have to maintain the game as downloadable indefinitely (probably too onerous) or at least allow a "grace period" of say, three or five years when it can be downloaded but not purchased.

None of that is fundamentally incompatible with using a licence, to be clear. It's just different terms in the licence.

Re: Beyond I think it's going to be very interesting to see what happens when, as I think is inevitable, WotC decides to shut Beyond down even though it will almost certainly still technically be profitable at that time (probably only if they make a new edition and that for some reason doesn't use Beyond). If WotC lets people log in and download PDF (or similar) copies of their purchased products for, say, a few years (or longer!), or grants people them on a different site (DriveThru or w/e the D&D version of that is called I forget), then I think people will be fine. If they do try though, and go "LOL it was just a licence SUCKERS, we got you legally lolololol!" (which we cannot rule out, because this WotC, the true masters of the ancient martial art of Rake-Stepping), it'll be absolutely screaming chaos/mayhem, regardless of how "TECHNICALLY LEGAL!!!!" it is. They'd be reputationally nuked from orbit. They only got away with shutting down the 4E equivalent because it was pure-subscription - you got ALL the books with that sub, purchased nothing.
 

Sure, and that might have to change. It can still be a licencing agreement, but they might have to allow you to make backups or w/e, and as per the differences with the Switch 2 in US vs EU, they might not legally be able to remotely brick the game. If it was removed from the store, depending on the legislation or ruling, the company might have to maintain the game as downloadable indefinitely (probably too onerous) or at least allow a "grace period" of say, three or five years when it can be downloaded but not purchased.

None of that is fundamentally incompatible with using a licence, to be clear. It's just different terms in the licence.

Re: Beyond I think it's going to be very interesting to see what happens when, as I think is inevitable, WotC decides to shut Beyond down even though it will almost certainly still technically be profitable at that time (probably only if they make a new edition and that for some reason doesn't use Beyond). If WotC lets people log in and download PDF (or similar) copies of their purchased products for, say, a few years (or longer!), or grants people them on a different site (DriveThru or w/e the D&D version of that is called I forget), then I think people will be fine. If they do try though, and go "LOL it was just a licence SUCKERS, we got you legally lolololol!" (which we cannot rule out, because this WotC, the true masters of the ancient martial art of Rake-Stepping), it'll be absolutely screaming chaos/mayhem, regardless of how "TECHNICALLY LEGAL!!!!" it is. They'd be reputationally nuked from orbit. They only got away with shutting down the 4E equivalent because it was pure-subscription - you got ALL the books with that sub, purchased nothing.

How things went with 4E is what I had in mind.

I'm not familiar enough with D&D Beyond to know how a D&D Beyond subscription would be seen as something different than the subscription to the 4E tools.
 

I think the video is overhyping the position of the EU Parliament VP. It's a sign of political support, but there is a strong chance the potential end result, if any, would be disappointing and not cover all online games.

I also agree that the change won't come from court. The courts interpret the law to apply it to the case brought before them in civil law systems (ie, the tradition most common in continental Europe) but precedents are only illustration and don't determine the ruling. Even if you get one court to rule that the law is interpreted in a way, it won't affect any other court in the same country. However, the way the judges interpreted the law can enlighten the later judges. Highest court of each country can set up guidelines on how to read a specific law, but mostly the onus is on the law to be clear, and changes mostly come from an evolution brought by lawmaker. Judges don't get to decide (and it often happens that a law is changed when it is discovered that it was written so badly than the judges applied it in an unintended way... but exactly the way it was written).

An EU directive (the piece of legislation that comes from the EU) must be "translated" into national laws within 2 years. They don't specify the details but they define goals that must be reached, and each Member States adapt it so its own laws reflect the harmonization on the EU.

The wording is often very important. For example, let's take theft. In some juridictions, it is defined as the unlawful removal of a physical property from someone. With this definition, you can't sue for theft if nothing is taken. So if you go to a hotel and leave without paying, you're not stealing. It's very similar, but it is a different misdemeanor and it requires another definition. Same you're not removing something, but tricking the owner into giving it to you (for example, you promise to pay the seller later, and don't). Often, of course, the penalties set for this different variations are the same, but the definition matters.

And the definition override what the contract says.

If someone is selling a coffee, and it's not coffee, you can get a compensation. The court will check if it was coffee. You can't make a defense saying that in your head, coffee was water mixed with black ink. The laws will define it exactly. It tends to make laws verbose and often, the EU is derided for it, for example about a text that regulated the length a banana can have.

Which wasn't a joke : "The minimum length permitted is 14 cm and the minimum grade permitted is 27 mm. As an exception to the third paragraph, bananas of the Gros Michel and Cavendish sub-groups produced in Madeira, the Azores, the Algarve, Canary Islands, Crete, Lakonia and Cyprus which are less than 14 cm in length may be marketed in the Union." (part of Delegated regulation - EU - 2023/2429 - EN - EUR-Lex, the regulation defining bananas). [Regulations are another legislative tool of the EU, they don't require interpretation and are directly applicable without requiring transposition into local laws]. While laymen will laugh saying the EU is full of technocrats that need a 1,800 pages long text to recognize a banana, it is actually useful to law professionalss.

When there are definition, you can't contractually say "I am not selling X, I am selling Y instead" -- well, you can write it into your contract, but it will be made void by the courts, who will apply the law that say that a product with all the characteristics is an X and therefore you calling it Y won't work). For example, if you sell a book, you can't prevent someone from reselling it. Saying that the item you're selling isn't a book, but the physical replication of an online resource that you're only granting a revokable, non-transferable license to access the content won't work. It fits the definition of a book, so you can't prevent reselling it, even if it would be possible for e-books (because the text saying you can resell book and the rights are exhausted with the first sale, but books are defined as physical items, so e-book aren't included).

The same could happen to interactive digital entertainment products. Once defined, they could be mandated to forbid the need of connecting to an online resource, or limit the consequences of the failure to connect.

However, without knowing the extend of any future directive, it is difficult to draw any conclusion from the video and the position expressed in the video. Worded as above, it would totally prevent MMOs to be marketed in the EU. This is probably not what the wording will do. But it could differentiate somehow between single-player game and multi-player games. It could have a very small impact (forbidding single player games to rely on an external connection, while allowing multiplayer games to do so) or be a real change on how digital content is treated, the way it is expected by the SKG movement. Without knowing the extend of a proposed legal change, it is difficult to draw any conclusion. Especially one as far-reaching as thinking companies would be forced to allow private servers to be run. Or one saying, as the MEP says, that you "own" a video game when you buy it. It would create a set of right you can't be deprived of when you pay money for a video game, irrespective of how you phrase the EULA.
 
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Earlier, I posted a quote directly from Steam.
Sure, Steam provides a license agreement when you "buy" a game. But laws can override that kind of thing. For example (from a different sector), EU law specifies that all workers are entitled to a contiguous 11 hours of rest per 24-hour period as well as another 24 hours of contiguous rest per week connected to one of the 11-hour periods (so total 35 hours), and that you aren't allowed to work more than an average of 48 hours per week including overtime over a period that can vary between countries and sectors but is not to exceed 4 months. There are some exceptions to these rules (like offshore workers), but for the most part you can't negotiate away these limits in your employment contract. Similarly, it would be possible for the EU to write law that says that you purchase software, not license it. I'm not a lawyer so I don't know how such a law would be phrased, but I am confident that it would be possible.
 

Sure, Steam provides a license agreement when you "buy" a game. But laws can override that kind of thing. For example (from a different sector), EU law specifies that all workers are entitled to a contiguous 11 hours of rest per 24-hour period as well as another 24 hours of contiguous rest per week connected to one of the 11-hour periods (so total 35 hours), and that you aren't allowed to work more than an average of 48 hours per week including overtime over a period that can vary between countries and sectors but is not to exceed 4 months. There are some exceptions to these rules (like offshore workers), but for the most part you can't negotiate away these limits in your employment contract. Similarly, it would be possible for the EU to write law that says that you purchase software, not license it. I'm not a lawyer so I don't know how such a law would be phrased, but I am confident that it would be possible.

I'm sure there's a way to write something that covers that.

I'm simply pointing out that a ruling or an opinion about game ownership doesn't mean a whole lot when companies say that they don't sell games -they sell licenses.

I'm not in any way defending what contemporary companies do. I'm opining that it would be easy to get around a future ruling concerning owning a thing (a game) by maintaining (as many game companies do) that they're not in the business of selling ownership stakes; they're in the business of licensing access.
 

I'm sure there's a way to write something that covers that.

I'm simply pointing out that a ruling or an opinion about game ownership doesn't mean a whole lot when companies say that they don't sell games -they sell licenses.

I'm not in any way defending what contemporary companies do. I'm opining that it would be easy to get around a future ruling concerning owning a thing (a game) by maintaining (as many game companies do) that they're not in the business of selling ownership stakes; they're in the business of licensing access.
The point that has been made is that if a law were made that specified that video games must be sold and not licensed then, game companies would have to comply or cease their commercial activity in the EU. It wouldn't matter how the companies might represent it. The law would override that.
 

Or, most probably, if (big if!) the EU was going to write a directive covering that, it would be worded as preventing a person having the rights to use an interactive digital entertainment product to be contractually deprived of the possibility of doing X and Y.

It would apply irrespective of the mode of acquiring the right to use, ownership or licensing, the same way editors can't prevent someone to decompile a computer program for interoperability purpose.
 
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I'm sure there's a way to write something that covers that.

I'm simply pointing out that a ruling or an opinion about game ownership doesn't mean a whole lot when companies say that they don't sell games -they sell licenses.

I'm not in any way defending what contemporary companies do. I'm opining that it would be easy to get around a future ruling concerning owning a thing (a game) by maintaining (as many game companies do) that they're not in the business of selling ownership stakes; they're in the business of licensing access.
Basically, you can't write a contract to allow you to do something illegal. The contract is not valid. So if this stuff was enshrined into law, a contract can't override that. You can't carefully word a contract to make a murder legal, as an extreme example.

I mean, I don't think that's going to happen. I'm just talking hypothetically.
 

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