EU Vice-president says once a video game is sold, it is owned by the customer.

I'm not sure that the ruling would really matter.

The wall of text that most people skip when starting a new game says that you're not being sold the game; instead, you're being sold a (limited) license to be allowed to use the game.

Not saying that I agree with game companies. Just saying that I think their position is that "buying" a game is akin to buying a movie ticket: you're allowed to view it and interact with it, but you don't necessarily own it.
They hide their sleaze behind walls of text written in a deliberately impenetrable pseudolanguage.

I'm not sure that the ruling would really matter.

Wouldn't a ruling in effect mean that this particular bit of sleaze is not allowed, even if it's in the contract?

Although ultimately the ruling that's really needed is one saying that all these "agreements" are unconscionable and invalid. And also one saging that consumer rights in general can't be waived. Unfortunately, the world's governments, EU included, are far too in league with big business to ever rule like this officially.
 

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They hide their sleaze behind walls of text written in a deliberately impenetrable pseudolanguage.



Wouldn't a ruling in effect mean that this particular bit of sleaze is not allowed, even if it's in the contract?

Although ultimately the ruling that's really needed is one saying that all these "agreements" are unconscionable and invalid. And also one saging that consumer rights in general can't be waived. Unfortunately, the world's governments, EU included, are far too in league with big business to ever rule like this officially.

First, I'm not a lawyer.

Secondly, I do not currently live in the EU, so it may be parsed differently there.

That being said, I do have some experience with how wording can matter when it comes to legality, rules, and regulation. I currently work for a government agency; the specifics of how things are worded can (and often do) matter.

It's also a question of established logic.

If the EU ruling says that buying a game means that you own a game, I'm inclined to see that as a hollow ruling when contemporary game companies claim that you're not buying the game -instead, you're buying a license to use the game.

In a similar way, buying a movie ticket does not mean that I have ownership over the movie; I only bought a license to be able to view the movie for a specified time and for a specified number of people. (FWIW, there is talk of streaming services trying to use this model to prosecute people for sharing their passwords for other people to watch movies on streaming services.)

I do agree with you that such things are sleazy tactics. I do not support doing business that way. As a member of a community engaged in a conversation, I'm simply expressing how I imagine that companies using sleazy tactics would continue to do so, even with the ruling in place.
 




I think most of those "license" agreements have been considered unenforceable in the past. The only tests against them have normally gone somewhat against the companies (the biggest one I think was a side track which led to a massive microsoft lawsuit which became an anti-monopoly case against them in the 90s).

Quoting those "License" agreements as saying you only have a license doesn't work all that great. It's why the movement has gotten steam recently. If you aren't actually buying a product, how can one actually steal it. (I can name several ways, but that's just like...my opinion and hence most of those who say this would not agree with these ideas).

It's either a product you buy, or an item you simply cannot actually own or buy or even obtain...only view. And it you only have rights from a license to view and interact with it, then, just like any other experience if it's in the open where you can view it...they can't claim you stole it.

(For example, you can steal a movie ticket, but if you stumble across a movie showing out in the public and decide to watch it, they cannot accuse you of stealing it as you didn't steal anything from anyone. You watched something that was open on the outside and no one seemed to be stopping you. It's not your fault, it's whoever was broadcastng the movie on TV, in a Park, or where ever you say it.

In that light, you can sell a license, you may even steal a license, but you can't steal a thing which isn't property (as I said, I can think of several ways to, but most of those using this argument would not agree with me). If it's not property that you can buy, then there is nothing you can steal.

You can steal a car, but you can't steal an experience of riding in a car someone else drove. You wouldn't steal a car, but you might ride in car if someone offered you a ride, even if it wasn't your car (especially if it wasn't your car, that's why you accepted the ride in the first place).
 

Wouldn't a ruling in effect mean that this particular bit of sleaze is not allowed, even if it's in the contract?
If the law changes here, it would be more likely to be because the EU changed or "clarified" the law, rather than because an EU court ruled on it - I mean, that could happen, but Civil Law (in the sense, as opposed to Common Law, not as opposed to Criminal Law, sorry I didn't make up the terms) which is the approach the EU uses (and virtually all current EU countries, Britain was the exception) is somewhat less bound by judicial precedent than Common Law is.

There's no ruling. Just somebody expressing an opinion.
Yup. What is interesting here is the direction of travel more than the individual statement. This opinion seems to be becoming increasingly popular/common, even with politicians. I can't help but think that's partly because lawmakers are increasingly of an age when they played games, or maybe even still do, so don't see games as much as a weird thing for kids/losers as they did in earlier eras.

I'm inclined to see that as a hollow ruling when contemporary game companies claim that you're not buying the game -instead, you're buying a license to use the game.
I think you're failing to understand how legal systems work on a pretty basic level here.

If the EU legislates that buying a game is owning a game, and/or if a significant body of judicial precedence for that position built up in EU courts (not currently the case, it's a more mixed picture), then that would be the position, and game companies would have to decide how they interacted with that. It would not be a "hollow ruling" in the way it might be a single US Common Law court, where a judge is simply going to be overridden by some jurisdiction-shopped East Texas appeal judge or the obviously extremely pro-corporation-biased current makeup of the US Supreme Court. What game companies would do, we don't know. But the EU is too big a market to ignore, and this isn't actually that bad of a problem! Companies will kick and scream and shout but the real result of multiple such ruling or EU legislation to that effect would probably not be huge. All would likely mean is if GaaS/MMO/always-online-type games shut down voluntarily, they had to publish some software that could be used to make them work, or they had to put out a final patch turning the game into a single-player game (both of which have absolutely been done by companies before!).

There'd be a couple of years of transition. Some shirty US publisher would no doubt refuse to publish some really dodgy GaaS game in the EU very publicly, and people would act like they cared even though six months later the game was dead anyway. Then eighteen months after that, this would just be the new "business as usual".

I should note we're already seeing companies having to behave different in the EU to the US or Japan. For example, in the US/Japan/most-of-the-world, Nintendo can brick - and I do mean brick - your Switch 2 if they even think you're pirating games on it or otherwise modifying software. In the EU, they can cut you off from the Nintendo network, and maybe you can never download anything officially again (which is still pretty bad), but they cannot brick your Switch 2 (that would be very bad and they'd get sued and lose immediately, probably have to pay out the full cost of the machine + everyone's court costs), and their EULAs in these regions reflects this difference.

Is it it stopping or slowing Nintendo in the EU though? Nah. It's cost of doing business and it's not a high cost. Nor would this be in the longer-term, again no matter how much game publishers scream and kick about it.
 

If the law changes here, it would be more likely to be because the EU changed or "clarified" the law, rather than because an EU court ruled on it - I mean, that could happen, but Civil Law (in the sense, as opposed to Common Law, not as opposed to Criminal Law, sorry I didn't make up the terms) which is the approach the EU uses (and virtually all current EU countries, Britain was the exception) is somewhat less bound by judicial precedent than Common Law is.


Yup. What is interesting here is the direction of travel more than the individual statement. This opinion seems to be becoming increasingly popular/common, even with politicians. I can't help but think that's partly because lawmakers are increasingly of an age when they played games, or maybe even still do, so don't see games as much as a weird thing for kids/losers as they did in earlier eras.


I think you're failing to understand how legal systems work on a pretty basic level here.

If the EU legislates that buying a game is owning a game, and/or if a significant body of judicial precedence for that position built up in EU courts (not currently the case, it's a more mixed picture), then that would be the position, and game companies would have to decide how they interacted with that. It would not be a "hollow ruling" in the way it might be a single US Common Law court, where a judge is simply going to be overridden by some jurisdiction-shopped East Texas appeal judge or the obviously extremely pro-corporation-biased current makeup of the US Supreme Court. What game companies would do, we don't know. But the EU is too big a market to ignore, and this isn't actually that bad of a problem! Companies will kick and scream and shout but the real result of multiple such ruling or EU legislation to that effect would probably not be huge. All would likely mean is if GaaS/MMO/always-online-type games shut down voluntarily, they had to publish some software that could be used to make them work, or they had to put out a final patch turning the game into a single-player game (both of which have absolutely been done by companies before!).

There'd be a couple of years of transition. Some shirty US publisher would no doubt refuse to publish some really dodgy GaaS game in the EU very publicly, and people would act like they cared even though six months later the game was dead anyway. Then eighteen months after that, this would just be the new "business as usual".

I should note we're already seeing companies having to behave different in the EU to the US or Japan. For example, in the US/Japan/most-of-the-world, Nintendo can brick - and I do mean brick - your Switch 2 if they even think you're pirating games on it or otherwise modifying software. In the EU, they can cut you off from the Nintendo network, and maybe you can never download anything officially again (which is still pretty bad), but they cannot brick your Switch 2 (that would be very bad and they'd get sued and lose immediately, probably have to pay out the full cost of the machine + everyone's court costs), and their EULAs in these regions reflects this difference.

Is it it stopping or slowing Nintendo in the EU though? Nah. It's cost of doing business and it's not a high cost. Nor would this be in the longer-term, again no matter how much game publishers scream and kick about it.

I don't disagree with that.

Though, what I'm saying is that I'm not seeing how a ruling about buying a game influences companies who maintain that they are not selling the game -and are instead selling a usage license.

Edit: For example, many of the games that you "buy" on Steam are purchased usage license rights, not ownership of the game itself.

Edit 2: The following is quoted directly from the Steam user agreement:

"...The Content and Services are licensed, not sold. Your license confers no title or ownership in the Content and Services..." ~Steam
 
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I don't disagree with that.

Though, what I'm saying is that I'm not seeing how a ruling about buying a game influences companies who maintain that they are not selling the game -and are instead selling a usage license.

Edit: For example, many of the games that you "buy" on Steam are purchased usage license rights, not ownership of the game itself.

Edit 2: The following is quoted directly from the Steam user agreement:

"...The Content and Services are licensed, not sold. Your license confers no title or ownership in the Content and Services..." ~Steam
Companies can say whatever they like (within legal bounds) - but it's national law that wins in the end in a specific nation (and EU nations national law must reflect EU law). Period. End of story. That's why so many EULAs and terms within them have been ruled invalid over the years.

There's no "omg the company said this so we must ignore national laws!!!". That's not a thing. The closest you can get is a legal system which is favourable to companies over consumers to the point of ludicrousness (which the US approaches at times). If the US suddenly got some cool gamer President and very different lawmakers they could easily make laws that made buy = own in the US, and whilst the heavily pro-corporation SC might try and mess with that, I suspect they'd struggle, if the laws were written well enough.

I'm sure they'll still PHRASE it as a licence until the end of time. What would change wouldn't be that (unless the laws specified it, which is unlikely, I think), it would be the actual behaviour of the companies and the way they treated games, particularly when they reached end-of-life. And that's what matters in the end.

What would be "hollow" would not be the ruling - it'd be the claim that it was just a "licence". And this isn't that fanciful - EULAs are frequently extremely hollow!
 

Companies can say whatever they like (within legal bounds) - but it's national law that wins in the end in a specific nation (and EU nations national law must reflect EU law). Period. End of story. That's why so many EULAs and terms within them have been ruled invalid over the years.

There's no "omg the company said this so we must ignore national laws!!!". That's not a thing. The closest you can get is a legal system which is favourable to companies over consumers to the point of ludicrousness (which the US approaches at times). If the US suddenly got some cool gamer President and very different lawmakers they could easily make laws that made buy = own in the US, and whilst the heavily pro-corporation SC might try and mess with that, I suspect they'd struggle, if the laws were written well enough.

I'm sure they'll still PHRASE it as a licence until the end of time. What would change wouldn't be that (unless the laws specified it, which is unlikely, I think), it would be the actual behaviour of the companies and the way they treated games, particularly when they reached end-of-life. And that's what matters in the end.

What would be "hollow" would not be the ruling - it'd be the claim that it was just a "licence". And this isn't that fanciful - EULAs are frequently extremely hollow!

I agree that laws are win in the end.

At the same time, owning a product and licensing a product are two different things.

A law written about buying and selling a product (change of ownership) may not mean anything at all when it comes to purchasing a licensing agreement.

A thing and a limited license to have access to said thing, while related, are not synonymous.

I recently bought a ticket to see Superman. That granted me a viewing of the movie at a particular time and place. Afterwards, I maintained no ownership over the movie.
 

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