Eve of Mirkwood [Full]
- Thread starter Dlsharrock
- Start date
Dlsharrock
First Post
It seems points buy occur *after* abilities are adjusted for class/race (according to what I've been told by a mentor GM of mine who has used this system a lot more than me, so if anyone has just reason to suggest it's incorrect I'm open to discussion).
Therefore points costs increase if you raise the score above 14 irrespective of bonuses/penalties. For example, if you've awarded your character 15 Dex from a starting point of 10 (+2 racial bonus perhaps), the points cost is still 8 not 5. A score of 15=8pts, 16=10pts, 17=13pts, 18=16pts. All ability rises from 9-14 still cost their equivalent in points irrespective of bonuses/penalties.
I'll just put this out there before I give attention to each character as I think some players may need to make adjustments.
Therefore points costs increase if you raise the score above 14 irrespective of bonuses/penalties. For example, if you've awarded your character 15 Dex from a starting point of 10 (+2 racial bonus perhaps), the points cost is still 8 not 5. A score of 15=8pts, 16=10pts, 17=13pts, 18=16pts. All ability rises from 9-14 still cost their equivalent in points irrespective of bonuses/penalties.
I'll just put this out there before I give attention to each character as I think some players may need to make adjustments.
I would actually disagree with that, as it takes away any difference between races. If the cost is the same, regardless of bonuses, it would be as easy to have an elf with a 16 con as a dwarf with a 16 con. That negates the racial modifiers, in my eyes. If you purchase your stats and then adjust them (this is the way the RPGA does it, by the way) then your elves will still be more dextrous than dwarves, and dwarves will be hardier. That fits the fluff of the races, in my mind.
Dlsharrock
First Post
Yuurs, this was also my thoughts. I think I will consider this and speak with him again. I get the distinct feeling, given his experience with D&D compared to mine, that he's probably come across something I haven't foreseen. Hold fire with the adjustments folks. Any further thoughts are welcome!
Dlsharrock
First Post
Ok. It seems I didn't *quite* understand what was being patiently explained to me (not for the first time, I hasten to add!), or rather I ommitted a very important detail. This is the first time I've used the points-buy system so please forgive me while I don my trusty brain crampons and climb the learning curve. Bring back dice, all is forgiven!
Racial bonuses/penalties are applied prior to adding points. So, if you have your elf with his +2 Dex bonus he goes up to a starting Dex ability score of 10. If you have your half-orc with no Dex bonus his starting Dex ability score is 8. Simple enough so far.
Important bit: Whatever the bonus/penalty is, it then translates to a positive or negative modifier to the points cost. Still with me? Then you're a better man than I because I had to have this explained a good ten times before the penny dropped.
Basically, if you have a -2 Dex racial penalty, you apply this to the relevant ability score before you buy your points and you translate the penalty to a +2 bonus modifier on the points cost. If your elf has a +2 Dex racial bonus you apply this before you buy your points (so he has Dex 10) and you translate the bonus to a -2 penalty modifier on the points cost, then you buy your points. If it was a -1 or +1 racial bonus/penalty you'd translate it as a +1 penalty/bonus modifier respectively on the points cost, and so on and so forth. You apply the modifier, either as a deduction or addition, whether you go above 14 or not.
Extra points costs still apply if you lift your ability score above 14. The crux of all this is that an elf who starts with a Dex score of 8 and pays 8pts to go up to an ability score of 15 doesn't then get an unfair advantage over those with no racial bonus if he adds his racial +2 bonus to lift Dex to 17 (which should cost 13pts). Yes, the elf should have a +2 advantage anyway, but using this method his advantage is greater. He is in effect an ubber elf!
The 8 point starting level is the default zero cost. So if you have a racial penalty, -2 Con for example, you start with 6 points instead of 8. The cost of adding 1pt to 6 to bring your Con up to 7 isn't 1, but -1 because 8 is default zero. -2 Con is a racial penalty, so it translates as a positive score modifier of +2. -1 + 2 = 1.
If you think all this is confusing, you're right.
If you are a bit flummoxed, ignore all the above and just do this:
Start all abilities at 8. Add any racial adjustments. For positive racial adjustments (ie +1, +2 etc) deduct the equivalent amount from the cost of buying points. For negative racial adjustments, add the equivalent amount from the cost of buying points. Use this sliding scale.
Ability score Cost
6 -2
7 -1
8 0 (default zero points cost)
9 1
10 2
11 3
12 4
13 5
14 6
15 8
16 10
17 13
18 16
And let me know if you have any problems understanding what the hell I'm talking about.
Racial bonuses/penalties are applied prior to adding points. So, if you have your elf with his +2 Dex bonus he goes up to a starting Dex ability score of 10. If you have your half-orc with no Dex bonus his starting Dex ability score is 8. Simple enough so far.
Important bit: Whatever the bonus/penalty is, it then translates to a positive or negative modifier to the points cost. Still with me? Then you're a better man than I because I had to have this explained a good ten times before the penny dropped.
Basically, if you have a -2 Dex racial penalty, you apply this to the relevant ability score before you buy your points and you translate the penalty to a +2 bonus modifier on the points cost. If your elf has a +2 Dex racial bonus you apply this before you buy your points (so he has Dex 10) and you translate the bonus to a -2 penalty modifier on the points cost, then you buy your points. If it was a -1 or +1 racial bonus/penalty you'd translate it as a +1 penalty/bonus modifier respectively on the points cost, and so on and so forth. You apply the modifier, either as a deduction or addition, whether you go above 14 or not.
Extra points costs still apply if you lift your ability score above 14. The crux of all this is that an elf who starts with a Dex score of 8 and pays 8pts to go up to an ability score of 15 doesn't then get an unfair advantage over those with no racial bonus if he adds his racial +2 bonus to lift Dex to 17 (which should cost 13pts). Yes, the elf should have a +2 advantage anyway, but using this method his advantage is greater. He is in effect an ubber elf!
The 8 point starting level is the default zero cost. So if you have a racial penalty, -2 Con for example, you start with 6 points instead of 8. The cost of adding 1pt to 6 to bring your Con up to 7 isn't 1, but -1 because 8 is default zero. -2 Con is a racial penalty, so it translates as a positive score modifier of +2. -1 + 2 = 1.
If you think all this is confusing, you're right.
If you are a bit flummoxed, ignore all the above and just do this:
Start all abilities at 8. Add any racial adjustments. For positive racial adjustments (ie +1, +2 etc) deduct the equivalent amount from the cost of buying points. For negative racial adjustments, add the equivalent amount from the cost of buying points. Use this sliding scale.
Ability score Cost
6 -2
7 -1
8 0 (default zero points cost)
9 1
10 2
11 3
12 4
13 5
14 6
15 8
16 10
17 13
18 16
And let me know if you have any problems understanding what the hell I'm talking about.
I do not understand the hullaballoo. The rules are pretty simple and clear, as I understand them.
Racial bonuses/penalties are applied after stats are determined.
This means that if you have +2 racial to Con, then a Con of 18 costs 10 points for you (10 points to get 16, then the racial mod). Racial mods are just like -every other mod in the game-. Added on after stats are generated. Stats...mods.
Now, if you wanna houserule that, sobeit...but that's the RAW. The PHB lists the order in which characters are generated on page 6.
Is there something I'm missing that complicates things?
Racial bonuses/penalties are applied after stats are determined.
This means that if you have +2 racial to Con, then a Con of 18 costs 10 points for you (10 points to get 16, then the racial mod). Racial mods are just like -every other mod in the game-. Added on after stats are generated. Stats...mods.
Now, if you wanna houserule that, sobeit...but that's the RAW. The PHB lists the order in which characters are generated on page 6.
Is there something I'm missing that complicates things?
renau1g
First Post
Ok.... I've started on my Character Sheet. I'm going to be working tonight & tomorrow, but I'll be fleshing him out as the weekend progresses. I didn't buy any equipment yet, to come.
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=50123
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=50123
Dlsharrock
First Post
Shayuri said:
Well, as I understand it:
Elf starts at Dex 8, buy 8pts at a cost of 10 to go up to Dex 16. Add +2 Racial bonus to go up to Dex 18.
Half-orc starts at Dex 8, buys 8pts at a cost of 10 to go up to Dex 16 and has no racial bonus (which is ok, because he's a clumsy half-orc). But if he then wants to match the elf's Dex 18 he needs to spend a further 6pts, which means the elf's racial Dex bonus gives him an effective 4pt discount on the cost of setting up his Abilities. Using the 'sliding scale' rule outlined above this issue is neatly addressed.
Even if an elf is better at Dextrous activities than a half orc, it isn't fair that he should receive an extra 4pts to spend on, say, Intelligence just because he's better with a bow.
Make more sense?
If you like, then yes, it's a house rule. Having said that, if all players take a violent dislike to this I'll reconsider. I'd sooner have a nice smooth game than lots of controversy before we've even started!
Edit: it's also worth remembering this is only an issue with the points-buy system, not random dice rolls. In the case of the latter it isn't an issue at all.
That's kind of the whole point behind racial adjustments though. It's not like the elf is really getting a point break. If he wants the max possible dex for an elf, he still pays 16 points.
It's just that for an elf, the max dex is 20, not 18.
It's all relative. You can't compare the score of an elf to the score of an orc. You have to take the costs within each race's normal minimum and maximum...
That's how I see it anyway. YMMV.
It's just that for an elf, the max dex is 20, not 18.
It's all relative. You can't compare the score of an elf to the score of an orc. You have to take the costs within each race's normal minimum and maximum...
That's how I see it anyway. YMMV.
Dlsharrock
First Post
Shayuri said:
Well, I think it's about the value of points, rather than the racial modifier itself. But I'm not going to labour the point, especially as it's somebody else's
Let's just go with the RPGA points buy method of buying points and adding racial modifiers afterward. I'm more interested in playing the game than rewriting the rules I think I might bring this up elsewhere in the forums though. I'd quite like to hear what other gamers think of it.
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