Even Steven Array
- Thread starter Kurtomatic
- Start date
Holy Bovine
First Post
When we first started 4E I had the whole group use the 'standard array' from the PHB. I regret it now just because the party seems a little underpowered - especially the implement users who really seem to need to have that 20 in their primary by 4th level at the latest.
keterys
First Post
A 20 for an implement user is just as valid as it is for a weapon user, and it's generally a perception problem and not an actual problem that implement users have a harder time than weapon users in terms of hitting.
Unless they have powers that all target the same defense, and the DM sends monsters against them that are consistently good at that defense, anyhow.
Unless they have powers that all target the same defense, and the DM sends monsters against them that are consistently good at that defense, anyhow.
pauljathome
First Post
I'd go a different route and just tweak the point costs a little to encourage whatever you wish to encourage.
So, if you want to discourage 18s then make them a little more expensive. You want to encourage 14's then make them cheaper. Have all stats start at 10 and give out 2 less pts.
That kind of thing.
Don't go nuts on this or you'll likely run into unexpected balance problems. But something like - reduce the cost of stats 14, 15 by 1. Keep 16 the same. Raise 17 and 18 by 2. Start with 9-10-10-10-10-10. 1 less starting pt would likely work very weill in getting characters more flattened out. And it still leaves a lot of room for optimizers to play. Which they WANT to do.
So, if you want to discourage 18s then make them a little more expensive. You want to encourage 14's then make them cheaper. Have all stats start at 10 and give out 2 less pts.
That kind of thing.
Don't go nuts on this or you'll likely run into unexpected balance problems. But something like - reduce the cost of stats 14, 15 by 1. Keep 16 the same. Raise 17 and 18 by 2. Start with 9-10-10-10-10-10. 1 less starting pt would likely work very weill in getting characters more flattened out. And it still leaves a lot of room for optimizers to play. Which they WANT to do.
Nifft
Penguin Herder
Yep yep yep.
The guy who can get away with a 20 is the guy who doesn't need his secondary stats for much. A Cleric with a low Charisma?
A Sorcerer, for example, would do much better IMHO with an 18/16 or 18/18 rather than a 20/14, because his Str or Dex is doing a lot for him.
Cheers, -- N
Dr_Ruminahui
First Post
That brings up an interesting issue that I've been thinking about - if total points remain the same, IMHO an "even Stephen" array is less powerful than a more typical array.
This is because, for the most part 3 of your stats are irrelevant, at least where a class's primary and secondary don't boost the same defence. Yes, there are exceptions (skills, some feet requirements, HP/surges from Con, Initiative from Dex), but for the most part if one has one good stat for a defence, it doesn't really matter what one's other stat for that defence is.
For example, I have a drow chaos sorceress. She has St 8, Co 13, De 17, In 10, Wi 10, Ch 19 post race boosts (D 15, Ch 17 pre-boosts).
With a good dex, what does she need points in int for? Sure, it will boost some skills (knowledge skills, for the most part) and allow certain feets (jack of all trades is nice and needs int 13), but unless I want a "skill monkey", she doesn't need int at all. Therefore, by forcing her (through a mandatory array) to dump dex for int, you are harming her damage output, her secondary effects on powers, her reflex defence, and perhaps skills that are important to her (say, stealth) for IMHO very little
Same goes (and even more so) for wisdom - few skills use wisdom (though, admittedly Perception is really good), few feets that I would be interested in, and any benefit hurts her charisma, which hurts her to hit, damage, will defence and other skills important to her (say, bluff).
Same for strength - other than some skill boosts (to skills which she cares nothing about), strength gives me nothing at the expence of my surges, HPs and fort defence.
Now, admittedly my example character has racial boosts in both her primary and secondary stat, and is in a class where her primary and secondary boost different defences, and there is no tertiary stat (well, asides from having points in something that boosts fort being a good idea). For classes that do have 3 (or more stats - I'm looking at you, Paladin) they need to boost, the even array is less penalizing. On the other hand, IMHO the even array is even more of a penalty on characters that don't have class boosting stat increases, as such characters typically use their race boosts to fill in their weak stats, therefore giving them points to boost their class stats - with an even array you take away that option which basically means that if you want to play a class, you had better choose a race that boosts its stats.
So, if the point buy of the even array is the same, IMHO it offers far less than more typical arrays as it requires the characters to sacrifice stats that actually do something for the character for boosts which do very little. Indeed, about the only thing it has going for it is that it reduces the spread of skill bonuses between party members, which may (or may not) be a good thing for skill challenges.
This is because, for the most part 3 of your stats are irrelevant, at least where a class's primary and secondary don't boost the same defence. Yes, there are exceptions (skills, some feet requirements, HP/surges from Con, Initiative from Dex), but for the most part if one has one good stat for a defence, it doesn't really matter what one's other stat for that defence is.
For example, I have a drow chaos sorceress. She has St 8, Co 13, De 17, In 10, Wi 10, Ch 19 post race boosts (D 15, Ch 17 pre-boosts).
With a good dex, what does she need points in int for? Sure, it will boost some skills (knowledge skills, for the most part) and allow certain feets (jack of all trades is nice and needs int 13), but unless I want a "skill monkey", she doesn't need int at all. Therefore, by forcing her (through a mandatory array) to dump dex for int, you are harming her damage output, her secondary effects on powers, her reflex defence, and perhaps skills that are important to her (say, stealth) for IMHO very little
Same goes (and even more so) for wisdom - few skills use wisdom (though, admittedly Perception is really good), few feets that I would be interested in, and any benefit hurts her charisma, which hurts her to hit, damage, will defence and other skills important to her (say, bluff).
Same for strength - other than some skill boosts (to skills which she cares nothing about), strength gives me nothing at the expence of my surges, HPs and fort defence.
Now, admittedly my example character has racial boosts in both her primary and secondary stat, and is in a class where her primary and secondary boost different defences, and there is no tertiary stat (well, asides from having points in something that boosts fort being a good idea). For classes that do have 3 (or more stats - I'm looking at you, Paladin) they need to boost, the even array is less penalizing. On the other hand, IMHO the even array is even more of a penalty on characters that don't have class boosting stat increases, as such characters typically use their race boosts to fill in their weak stats, therefore giving them points to boost their class stats - with an even array you take away that option which basically means that if you want to play a class, you had better choose a race that boosts its stats.
So, if the point buy of the even array is the same, IMHO it offers far less than more typical arrays as it requires the characters to sacrifice stats that actually do something for the character for boosts which do very little. Indeed, about the only thing it has going for it is that it reduces the spread of skill bonuses between party members, which may (or may not) be a good thing for skill challenges.
eamon
Explorer
The point buy of the even steven array was much higher (28 IIRC?) yeah, 16,15,14,13,12,10 adds up to 28. It's still quite sub-par since the most two relevant stats consist of only 16 point buy, the top three only of 21 point buy, and only the fourth stat pushes it up to 24 point buy. However, by far the most relevant stat is your primary stat; which suffers, and then your secondary stat - which also suffers. On the other hand, your're not losing much so if you find some build with lots of spread out prereqs and like playing a skill monkey, it could be attractive. Say; a bard or something.
keterys
First Post
Oddly, if I were playing a sorcerer, I'd love some free Int and Wis so I could pick up Enlarge Spell 
And my Chaladin would have loved more points to put into, well, everything. Literally.
I do think people get a little overly focused on their top two stats. I'd agree that the point buy makes it a little too efficient to do so. If you made point buy something like
9-13 - 1 per
14 - 2
15 - 3
16 - 4
17 - 5
18 - 6
(And rejiggered the total # of points) That'd probably make people a lot more comfortable with pitching a few points towards other stats.
And my Chaladin would have loved more points to put into, well, everything. Literally.
I do think people get a little overly focused on their top two stats. I'd agree that the point buy makes it a little too efficient to do so. If you made point buy something like
9-13 - 1 per
14 - 2
15 - 3
16 - 4
17 - 5
18 - 6
(And rejiggered the total # of points) That'd probably make people a lot more comfortable with pitching a few points towards other stats.
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
Oddly, if I were playing a sorcerer, I'd love some free Int and Wis so I could pick up Enlarge Spell
And my Chaladin would have loved more points to put into, well, everything. Literally.
I do think people get a little overly focused on their top two stats. I'd agree that the point buy makes it a little too efficient to do so. If you made point buy something like
9-13 - 1 per
14 - 2
15 - 3
16 - 4
17 - 5
18 - 6
(And rejiggered the total # of points) That'd probably make people a lot more comfortable with pitching a few points towards other stats.
I'm not sure I follow your chart there, lol. So you mean it would work out like
score cost
9 1
10 2
11 3
12 4
13 5
14 7
15 10
16 14
17 19
18 25
Which if the total points were rejiggered as you say to maybe 35 instead of 22 would mean you'd basically have what, 5 14's and an 8 potentially? Hmmm. Not sure how that comes out in the long run, but it would probably mean not many people would ever start with an 18 as they'd be looking at 18,13,13,10,10,8 or other similar permutations. I guess it would be a decent amount more tempting to go with a flatter array but those numbers might still need a little fudging to get exactly what you want.
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