Every Ability Score Affects Saving Throws

[airwalkrr]

This is one of the keener ideas I had in designing my own version of the d20 system. The +2 base bonus for a good save always irked me because players can multiclass and quickly boost low saves, often without having to trade much, if anything for the opportunity (e.g. fighter taking a level of ranger and hexblade). So I came up with a way that I felt was fair to nix it. Interestingly, it has some beneficial side-effects, which I will note below.

Fortitude is modified by both Str and Con.
Reflex is modified by Dex and Int.
Will is modified by Wis and Cha.

I find this actually makes a lot of sense. A number of Fort saves (saving vs. wind for example) rely more on Strength than Constitution, so it makes sense to add Strength. Additionally, since part of Strength represents being fit, it would be logical that someone who is fit is more resistant to things like disease and poison since they probably have more protein and vitamins in their diet (you need it to build muscle). It also follows that more Intelligent characters will have a better idea of how to avoid hazards and generally be able to think more quickly than those with lower Intelligence. Finally, since Charisma represents one's force of personality as well as personal magnetism (some might argue they are the same thing), especially considering such tidbits as resisting a command from a charm spell requires an opposed Charisma check, it is logical to me that a Charismatic person is more confident and thus, harder to dominate.

Beneficial Side Effects
1) Because saving throws are one of a character's most critical defenses, all ability scores are now important for all characters. Fighters can't view Charisma as a dump stat as easily because a lower Charisma means they can be more effectively dominated.
2) The effect of MAD (multiple ability dependency) for some classes (e.g. paladin, monk) is mitigated somewhat by the fact that all ability scores are now important for everyone, not just these specific classes.
3) Dwarves, to many the most powerful race in the game, all have slightly weaker Will saves, which gives them at least a tiny dent in their perfect bastion of defenses.
4) A half-orc's adjustments effectively give it +1 Fort, -1 Ref, and -1 Will. These adjustments are quite rational for a race characterized as bulky and dimwitted, but hardy.

 

[Aleolus]

Interesting idea, I may decide to implement it in my games. And it does make sense, your willpower is more than just how wise you are, it's also your force of personality (Cha). Your Con is how hardy you are (and that is both Str and Con), and smart people can figure out what's coming and react just as quickly as fast people!

"Oh look, the dragon's inhaling, I bet it's gonna blow fire. I'd better move!"

 

[DreamChaser]

Fighters and barbarians (who already have the best Fort) get better Fort.
Rogues (who already have the best Ref) get better Ref. Their Will also gets better because there are many Wis and Cha related skills that are important for rogues.
Clerics (who already have the best Will) get better Will. Their Fort also gets better because they are likely to have a high strength.

Wizards will get better Reflex saves, Bards and sorcerers will get better Will saves.

Monks who are most likely to use Str, Dex, and Wis now have a way of boosting all three saves without needing to worry constitution, reducing their multiple stat dependency.

Half-orcs get even more shafted. The poor guys were barely playable as it was (I mean unless you were only planning on playing a brainless, tactless, skill-less tank who does nothing but soak up damage and kill bad guys...they were perfect for that one limited role).

Spell casters are royally screwed with this unless something changes to allow the (already low) save DCs to go up.

Overall, I think it is a change that "makes sense" but requires more aggressive overhauls of the game to be workable.

DC

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

I think this is a nice idea, assuming that the change is accompanied by eliminating that irksome +2 base. I don't think it would change things that drastically.

Perhaps have the secondary stat only added in if one of the characters classes has a 'good' progression. Use fractional progression for everything else?

 

[airwalkrr]

I think this is a nice idea, assuming that the change is accompanied by eliminating that irksome +2 base. I don't think it would change things that drastically.

Perhaps have the secondary stat only added in if one of the characters classes has a 'good' progression. Use fractional progression for everything else?

I just eliminate the +2 base bonus. Everything else seems to work out fine. It is a nice, simple, elegant change. Of course, dragons end up having better ability scores when they did not need them, but I think dragon stats need to be toned down a bit anyway. Either that or up the CR for all dragons.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

This is one of the keener ideas I had in designing my own version of the d20 system. The +2 base bonus for a good save always irked me because players can multiclass and quickly boost low saves, often without having to trade much, if anything for the opportunity (e.g. fighter taking a level of ranger and hexblade). So I came up with a way that I felt was fair to nix it.

Pardon me for sounding snarky, but how does this mitigate your original problem? You don't like that adding a single level of a new class can boost saves by +2...so your solution is to change how ability scores interact with saves...

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

The original problem is not just adding the one level.. its in multi-classing and adding that +2 'base' boost over and over again. A fairly common HR I have seen on this board is to eliminate the base and use fracional progressions. This variant does the same thing, but then ties in a bit more reliance on stats.

Yes, it does mean that you can go all out and get a +4 or better added to your Fort save... which you could do by multiclassing per RAW anayway. The difference is there is a cost of boosting both related stats and you end up dumping other stats... and now every stat has an effect on save..

May not be the most elegant solution, but I think its good enough to try out.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

The original problem is not just adding the one level.. its in multi-classing and adding that +2 'base' boost over and over again. A fairly common HR I have seen on this board is to eliminate the base and use fracional progressions. This variant does the same thing, but then ties in a bit more reliance on stats.

This is the house rule that I use myself. I'm confused because I don't see that this HR is part of Airwalkrr's proposed solution. Maybe he implied so, and I missed it?

 

[akbearfoot]

Someone who multiclasses in order to get better saves IS sacrificing something in order to get those better saves.

If they take a level of monk, they lose a BAB point and the ability to wear armor, if they take hexblade, they are losing out on bonus feat progression. If they take anything other than fighter, they must delay access to weapon spec, etc...

Same pretty much goes for casting classes....they sacrifice turning ability, or higher level spell access, caster levels, or free spells per level and item creation feats.


You said yourself that saving throws are one of a characters best defenses. But most of what is exchanged in order to get better saving throws can be considered some of a characters best Offensive abilities.

It's like the fighter deciding to upgrade his +2 sword to a +3 sword instead of upgrading his +2 armor into +4 armor. He's traded defense in order to have more offense. The game doesen't need to be tweaked to -fix- this choice. At least not IMO. The change your proposing seems like it will make a characters strong saves better, and their weak saves weaker....fighters are STILL going to use charisma as a dump stat, because whats their other option? Unless you want all your characters to have their stats all be 12s and 13s.?



A better question is why do you hate half-orces so much?

 

[Meeki]

I agree multiclassing is sacrificing something already.

I like the basic idea behind the saves. I think there may be some confusion does fort now add both con and str? If so I would say just make six saves for everyone, basically. Str/con based saves add fort, wis/cha add will, etc. Then you can say make a cha will save. Of course for spells this gets messy, but you could let the person choose for spells.