D&D 5E Evil character in the party

[iserith]

I think if there's any "trick" to playing the game with evil characters (or any kind of character, really), it's to get on the same page about it before play and never fall back on the tired cliché of "It's what my character would do" when you're actively making the game not fun for other people at the table. Don't be that guy.

 

[SirAntoine]

I think if there's any "trick" to playing the game with evil characters (or any kind of character, really), it's to get on the same page about it before play and never fall back on the tired cliché of "It's what my character would do" when you're actively making the game not fun for other people at the table. Don't be that guy.

All you need to do is role play well, and everything else should be expected from you out of courtesy. The typical instance of stealing from the party, for example, would be taking treasure you find without declaring it, to keep a bigger share for yourself. Is that really a disruptive behavior? I don't think so, but the said character might go through other characters' packs and pick their pockets, too. If they're caught, they can be reacted to in-character without spoiling the game. The characters can ask them to leave, but they also might arrest them and take them to the town constable.

It's off topic, but in the example of a "jerk paladin", everyone can still ask that character to leave. Otherwise, it's not a problem. In fact, paladins are meant to adventure alone most of the time. They know they can't expect others to follow their code.

 

[iserith]

It doesn't matter how well you are roleplaying if you're annoying other people at the table in the doing. The problem is that you're annoying and that's an out-of-game issue to be handled with a direct discussion about how annoying you're being and could you please stop being so annoying. When playing a game, being a fun person to play with is kind of Job One, right?

(I'm using the universal "you" here, not you, SirAntoine.)

 

[Cernor]

The typical instance of stealing from the party, for example, would be taking treasure you find without declaring it, to keep a bigger share for yourself. Is that really a disruptive behavior?

This is one thing that bugs me: If the rogue finds a certain amount of wealth in a chest, how much is considered "bad form" or "impolite" to skim off the top? 10%? 20%? 10gp? Enough to make the remainder divide evenly? If the rogue finds a hidden treasure, like a ring buried in muck, is he supposed to share it with the rest of the party even if they had no hand in finding it (and in that case would even a good-aligned rogue keep it for herself?)

I think that stealing from another PC is where I'd draw the line of "gone too far". Stealing from random NPCs can be a nuisance, skimming off the top of a treasure hoard shouldn't be noticed, but stealing things from other PCs sows distrust and irritates the players, which tends to make the game experience less fun for everyone. And if someone gets annoyed that a rogue (whose sole reason to go adventuring is probably to get rich quick) takes a bit more than their fair share of the treasure, that's when the DM starts telling the rogue what they find via note.

 

[Sunseeker]

Never tell a player how much of what they'll get. My answer to any question is to give my usual DM smirk and say "try it and find out!"

I don't really have a problem with players stealing from other players, provided they make appropriate checks to do so. As long as the group can separate roleplay from reality, I allow this sort of thing. If I see that it is causing unneeded group tension, I'll tell the offender to knock it off, if he won't comply, he can GTFO. Taken to the extreme, I allow PC v. PC combat provided again that it doesn't cause too much player tension.

On a more general note, I don't allow certain types of evil characters. Lawful evil characters are often fun, folks who use the law, their own strength and skill to gain power and riches. Chaotic evil characters are almost universally unacceptable because they tend to come in either the baby-killer variety or the variety. The former is too gruesome and the latter is too combative for good group dynamics.

If there's a day when the player in question is not around, I'd take it as a chance to talk to the other players without his presence. Sometimes a really skilled player can be domineering without even meaning to be, and make others afraid to go against them.

 

[SirAntoine]

This is one thing that bugs me: If the rogue finds a certain amount of wealth in a chest, how much is considered "bad form" or "impolite" to skim off the top? 10%? 20%? 10gp? Enough to make the remainder divide evenly? If the rogue finds a hidden treasure, like a ring buried in muck, is he supposed to share it with the rest of the party even if they had no hand in finding it (and in that case would even a good-aligned rogue keep it for herself?)

I think that stealing from another PC is where I'd draw the line of "gone too far". Stealing from random NPCs can be a nuisance, skimming off the top of a treasure hoard shouldn't be noticed, but stealing things from other PCs sows distrust and irritates the players, which tends to make the game experience less fun for everyone. And if someone gets annoyed that a rogue (whose sole reason to go adventuring is probably to get rich quick) takes a bit more than their fair share of the treasure, that's when the DM starts telling the rogue what they find via note.

It's hard to say. Some people have said that the rogue's class name was changed from thief to rogue because calling it thief before actually convinced many players to steal as such, regardless of alignment. Then there are Kender.

So you have a lot of stealing going on in general, sometimes light hearted, and other times just plain selfish. The wise thief would be pocketing as much as he can while neither giving himself away or dissuading the rest of the party from penetrating deeper into the dungeon, where the thief knows more riches are likely waiting.

A good-aligned thief or rogue would probably draw the line on taking so much of the treasure that the other characters aren't really being rewarded for their efforts. A neutral thief would only care that the other characters are not deprived of any necessities, so they should get enough to get by. An evil thief would not care about them at all in this way, but instead would judge them by their worth to him. Finding a magical sword or wand, for instance, could go to the party's fighter or wizard instead of being sold or used by the thief, if he felt they could make the most use out of it. The thief would judge the party will get more treasure faster if the fighter has a better weapon, and if the wizard doesn't have to spend as much time preparing new spells.

And a lawful thief might abide by a contract he signed, even if he is evil, but that is only "might". It would depend how likely he thinks the other party members would be to abide by it and by other contracts in the future. If he is dealing with chaotics, he will not want to put himself at any possible disadvantage.

As for stealing from other PC's directly, good-aligned Kender can be forgiven, however annoying they can be. They will offer up the items or money taken if they're needed, and innocently ask if you're looking for this. (They really don't consider themselves thieves when they take things.) Neutral and evil Kender, needless to say, can be much more of a problem and may need to be exiled.

I recommend everyone keep their character sheets inside folders, and only share information with others they need to know. The DM, meanwhile, should have copies of these sheets in print or in electronic form so he can mark off whatever is stolen without the player knowing. This is important even if you choose to disallow inter-party stealing, like most do, because monsters and NPC's may be lurking about and the players shouldn't always know if they've been robbed or of what. (Taking their sheet to erase something kind of gives it away, LOL.)

Passing notes between player and DM is a useful system, and so is stepping away from the table briefly to have a chat. In my campaigns, I have seen players who were rivals in all things in life, and they brought their feud over into the game. They were quite a spectacle for the others, and sometimes every ten minutes they would be threatening each other. One time, one of them stole a Gem of Seeing from the other player, and I didn't have a system like this in place and let me tell you I heard from the player what he thought of my allowing the theft! So it can be really hard. The player took the gem, which was like the other's most prized possession, and he was a guest in his campaign. He teleported away with it, and the other swore to hunt him down and get it back.

So, you see, it can be some degree more painful if you allow any sort of this behavior at your table. I do not recommend it, but it can work and it will much better if it's better managed.

 

[SirAntoine]

Sometimes a really skilled player can be domineering without even meaning to be, and make others afraid to go against them.

Yes. Try to stay in touch with all your players as DM, to know if they are really satisfied with the game.

 

[SirAntoine]

I'll share this other story from one time I was a player. We were adventuring in Ravenloft, where we had been trapped for a long time. Everyone in the group had a good-aligned character except the thief, who was chaotic neutral. We had a terrific adventure, filled with excitement, gothic horror, and mystery, and at the end we had to acquire a quest item to win. The thief volunteered to try to go in and steal it, and we gave him every protective spell and assistance we could, really putting the kitchen sink into it. He went in, and snatched the item from a terrifying guardian that may have defeated all of us if we had to fight it. Then he disappeared.

He planned to steal the item and fence it for a great profit, and all of our efforts to get it would have been wasted along with some bad things happening in the story. Up to that point, the player had only skimmed a little money along the way, not enough to make us think him capable of this. But bam! With all the bonuses we gave him, he was going to be really hard to stop. I took it very hard myself, too, because I was the leader of the group and we were following my plan.

Now I tell you this story to say we could have protested to the DM for allowing that, but he chose to just referee the game and not interfere with anyone's actions. We could have protested to the player, too, calling him a jerk and asking him not to do it, but instead we reacted in-character completely. It happened long ago, and at the time I was angry, but I look back on it as one of the greatest adventures I've ever played and I don't hold it against that player. We gamed together for years afterwards. He forced me to compete with him, and that raised the value of the item for all of us. What we had to go through to get it back I won't say, but we did before the end of the night and he didn't have any hard feelings about that either.

He did it all under the pretense of "in character," and "I am playing a thief, who is chaotic neutral, so that is what he would do". I did think he was being a jerk, but it was up to him to make up his mind.

 

[delericho]

Of what?

That they're not having fun. And while 'fun' is subjective, if your players aren't having it according to whatever standards they set then you have a problem.

That a player is a jerk or that the group should disallow evil characters?

Actually, neither. As I said above, the issue isn't evil characters per se (you can get the exact problem with the "jerk Paladin", and it's just as much of a problem then).

But it's not even an indicator that the player is a jerk - it's funny how often people can do things like this and not even consider that others could have a problem with it.

In such a case, my recommendation would be to talk to the player, explain that the way he's running his character is making the game less fun for everyone else, and ask him to adjust his portrayal accordingly. That still doesn't mean he needs to abandon the evil PC - just change the way that they evil PC interacts with the rest of the group.

Now, if you have that discussion and he refuses to change, then that's an indicator that the player is a jerk. But then it may well be the player, not the character, who you ban from your table.

But I wouldn't restrict the freedom of a player to have the role he or she wants. Certain activities can be disallowed, such as adult-themed activities, but an evil character wanting to exploit the party for their personal gain is fine. It's in-character.

"I'm only playing my character" is a lousy excuse for doing so in a way that makes the game less fun for everyone else. The player chose that character and the player chooses how that character will act in any given situation.

If those choices make the game less fun for everyone else, choose differently.

 

[Mouseferatu]

The goal is not to add to everyone's fun. The goal is enjoy the game and your character, and not go too far.

Wow. I can't even begin to explain how wrong I think this is.

It any group activity among friends, it is the responsibility of everyone to do what they can to make the experience a good one for everyone. That doesn't need to be, and often shouldn't be, their only goal--but it should always be present.

The DM may be most responsible for making sure everyone enjoys a game, but everyone at the table shoulders some of that responsibility. And sometimes that means not doing something that would be fun for you, because it would ruin the enjoyment of others.